Launch Codes Live Recap: April 25th, 2024

On our 3rd episode of Launch Codes Live, Joe (CEO) and Andy (President) dissect the latest developments from Adobe, explore the issues posed by deep fakes, and offer insight into the closed vs. open source LLM’s debate.

Adobe FireFly 3 Announced

A couple days ago (on April 23rd), Adobe debuted the Adobe Firefly Image 3 Foundation Model at MAX London.

This will be the next major release in their collection of creative generative AI tools.

Currently in beta, this new iteration of FireFly 3 enhances Adobe’s already impressive suite, particularly in terms of photo realism capabilities. With tools like this, companies can now create bespoke, copyright-compliant images internally, potentially reducing reliance on external stock photo providers and reshaping the landscape of digital content creation.

Joe and Andy reflect on the rapid advancements of these tools, pointing out that it has only taken a single year to reach the 3rd major iteration of Adobe’s FireFly. 12 months from now, we could be looking at FireFly 5 or even 6. Time will tell.

The Fake James Bond Trailer

Joe and Andy shift the conversation to a fake James Bond trailer that has amassed millions of views and sparked widespread debate about the potential of AI in media creation. While this technology showcases impressive capabilities in generating convincing media, it raises significant ethical questions.

With tools like OpenAI’s Sora and Microsoft VASA-1 on the horizon, believable media will be easier than ever to create and disseminate – posing a major challenge for content verification and public trust in media.

While some aspects of the Bond trailer are clearly manufactured (such as Margot Robbie’s mouth movements being very off when she speaks, as Andy pointed out) the overall execution and presentation of the trailer demonstrates the increasing sophistication of deep fake technology, blurring the lines between reality and fabrication.

Adobe For B2B Marketers

Adobe is making significant strides in the B2B sector with its enhanced marketing tools, notably Adobe Journey Optimizer (AJO) and Customer Data Platform (CDP).

Andy notes that Adobe has been moving more and more into the B2B space for quite some time now, with things only ramping up as the months go by. This past Adobe Summit 2024 in Vegas is a prime example of that, where Adobe announced a new B2B-centric track for their AJO offering.

And while CDP is a relatively new tool in the Adobe collection, it was also announced at Adobe Summit 2024 that CDP will be able to access data warehouses in real-time, rather than going through cycles to bring data in. This ability to access and query data in real-time is definitely something people have been asking for.

Joe and Andy discuss these features in more detail – as well as the idea of unification of marketing tools – at more length in the full episode.

Meta’s Llama 3:
Open vs. Closed Source LLM’s

With Meta’s recent release of Llama 3, the conversation surrounding open vs. closed source LLM’s continues to heat up.

Joe introduces the topic by acknowledging the appeal of open-source models due to their ability to be advanced and augmented through community efforts. But on the other hand, he also recognizes the concerns about the security and ethical implications of open-source LLMs: “What’s the balance between this idea of progression and openness, and this idea of ‘closed’ maybe being a little bit safer?”

Andy builds on Joe’s points by recalling a book called “The Master Switch” by Tim Wu which discusses the historical patterns seen in the development of technologies like radio and television. Those began as open but eventually became regulated and more closed – will LLM’s follow the same trajectory across the board?

This conversation goes into much greater detail and nuance in the full episode below!

Watch the full episode.

If you missed this episode Launch Codes Live, and want to dive into these topics at a deeper level, you can watch the full recording on LinkedIn here.

Be on the lookout for the next event on LinkedIn in May!

Launch Codes Live Recap: February 15th, 2024

Nearly every day, there is a new update or breakthrough from a major AI company. It can be hard to keep up.

So on our Launch Codes Live show, Joe (CEO) and Lauren (VP of Marketing) took to LinkedIn Live to discuss the most important news in the world of AI so you can stay up-to-date.

Here is a brief overview of the stories they covered.

Gemini Advanced is now available for a 2-month free trial.

Google Bard is officially dead.

As of February 8th, Google’s GPT competitor is now called “Gemini Advanced” and it’s available for a 2-month free trial. After the trial is over, users will have to pay a 20 USD per month subscription to continue using it.

It’s still early, and we’re still dipping our toes in with Gemini Advanced, but the 2-month free trial is a welcomed offer that we didn’t see with Chat GPT Plus. Even as we write this, Google just made an announcement about their next generation model: Gemini 1.5.

On the full episode of Launch Codes Live here, Joe and Lauren dive deeper into how Gemini and the Google ecosystem, how it might compare to Microsoft co-pilot and GPT-4, as well as some background on how Google came up with the “Gemini” name.

Why is Gemini still only as good as GPT-4? (4 Theories)

Joe came across an interesting post by Ethan Mollick (Wharton professor and AI expert) that includes 4 potential theories on why the performance of Gemini is roughly on par with GPT-4.

Here are those theories (paraphrasing Ethan’s points):

  1. Gemini and GPT-4 are both at the height of what’s possible. Essentially, this is as good as it gets for AI using LLM technology.

  2. Google trained Gemini to meet GPT-4 levels and then stopped. More will come.

  3. OpenAI has some secret sauce that the other companies can’t figure out. This is just the best that Google can do.

  4. Gemini and GPT-4 being so similar is merely a coincidence.

Ethan thought that #2 was the most likely scenario here, but admits that he has no idea for sure.

It turns out that Ethan was right with Google’s announcement today about Gemini 1.5.

It’ll be exciting to see what comes after Gemini 1.5 and beyond.

Nvidia’s lets you run an AI chatbot on your GPU.

Nvidia recently announced “Chat with RTX”, which lets anyone run an AI chatbot locally on their GPU.

It’s still in its early stages and does require quite a significant supply of text before it becomes useful, but the ability to run an LLM without the use of the internet is another glimpse into the future of what’s possible. Eventually, we will likely see LLM’s running locally on our phones in the palm of our hand.

GPT is “less lazy” now?

Another story that came out earlier this year was the announcement that GPT should be “less lazy” now. Sam Altman said that this change is coming after an OpenAI update.

Some of the theories behind why GPT was slowing down – and even refusing to complete tasks – are pretty funny. One of them was that GPT is experiencing seasonal depression and has observed that humans “slow down” during the month of December.

The real reason for the slowdown is unclear, but it’s definitely back to normal now.

Watch the full episode.

If you missed our debut of Launch Codes Live, you can watch the full recording on LinkedIn here.

And we’ll be doing these live sessions on a monthly basis going forward, so look out for the next event on LinkedIn in March!

15 Bold Predictions for 2024

We’re making 15 bold predictions for marketing and MOPs in 2024. We broke it up into themes:

Data + Platforms

1. DataOps will become an important role and an opportunity that MOps can raise their hand for. Data is the new gold rush.

2. We are going to see a shift from database marketing to data based marketing. There will be a decline in platform importance.

3. CDPs are going to increase in importance as a central/core data source.

4. Key platforms to watch include Snowflake, Braze, Iterable, Workato, and Syncari.


5. AI generated content is going to shift our perceptions from what is high quality today, versus tomorrow. Video and personalization will become commodities. It will be important to look ahead to innovations and not just follow.

6. Death by inbox. The cost to generate content will continue to drop and inboxes/feeds are going to be overwhelmed.

7. Unique content wins. Ok content will become noise. Creativity will be more important than ever to reach audiences.

AI Innovations

8. Mini AI Hype Cycles will mean that we go through a series of leadership fits and starts. Embrace the fact that “We don’t need this” will evolve to “Do we need this?” to “Why don’t we have this?”

9. AI agents will be able to execute sequences and tasks. Imagine a task takes 31 steps. Agents will be able to perform some of those tasks (with guidance) with new capabilities with vision/multimodal AI.

10. AI optimization (AIO) will rise in importance relative to SEO. Google search as we know it will decay. Generative search will provide users more value and utility than links and sponsored links.

11. Hallucinations in AI will decline. The key players will refine their models. New approaches like WOE (world of experts) and strategies like RAG (Retrieval Augmented Generation) will also boost efficiency/accuracy and gain interest in 2024.


12. Who is the Sheriff? When are they coming to town? The question of who takes leadership and governance over AI is expected to become increasingly prominent in 2024.

13. Artificial intelligence operations (AIOps) is likely to emerge as a role or function we will see develop in 2024. Marketing, sales, IT, Legal (and others) might all have a seat at the table.

14. Efficiency gain recognition will lag. Leadership will grapple with the question of how to best recognize/allocate/recalibrate with the extra time gained from AI-driven efficiencies.

15. ‘Doing more with less’ has been the slogan of 2023. We predict that in 2024, organizations will likely double down on strategies to enhance output and performance without proportionate increases in resources. Welcome to the year of ‘doing even more with even less.’

Listen In

Listen to our latest episode of Launch Codes to hear more about these predictions.

[Episode 14] AI Transparency for Marketers

In our 14th episode of Launch Codes, Joe is joined once again by Matt Tonkin, RP’s VP of Consulting & Partnerships. They discuss:


Listen In


Google introduces Gemini to mixed reviews

Last week, Google introduced its new AI model, Gemini. It’s been a hot topic in the tech community, but not all of the attention has been positive. The controversy comes from Google’s demo video which demonstrates Gemini in action.

In the video, Gemini was responding to real-time inputs, like images and text, suggesting a certain level of intuitive interaction. But some were skeptical. Harri Weber from TechCrunch said, “In reality, it was a series of carefully tuned text prompts with still images, clearly selected and shortened to misrepresent what the interaction is actually like.”

Joe also brought our attention to a tweet from Ethan Mollick which reads:

“We really don’t know anything about Gemini Ultra. Does it beat GPT-4 for real? If so, why by such a small amount? Two options: 1) Gemini represents the best effort by Google, and the failure to crush GPT-4 shows limits of LLMs approaching 2) Google’s goal was just to beat GPT-4”

Matt commented that, once the demo video was broken down and revealed to be edited, it didn’t feel like a genuine demonstration anymore. Overall, he was disappointed and is wondering how this was approved by the Google team in the first place.

Joe responds by recognizing that he can understand the need to quickly demonstrate a product’s capabilities, especially in a short video. But at the same time, he makes the point that a very small amount of transparency — such as a disclaimer line somewhere in the video about how it was edited for brevity — could’ve gone a long way in building trust.

Joe and Matt also discuss how OpenAI, a company with around 700 employees, is able to move more quickly than Google, a company with tens of thousands of employees. “It’s bureaucracy and moving and shifting in the behemoth is pretty hard”, says Joe.


HubSpot’s November release updates

HubSpot released its November notes that included over 40 updates across their hubs, including Marketing, CMS, Service, Sales, and more. Joe and Matt touched on some of the main changes, which we’ve outlined below.

1) Daily Record Enrolment Limit For Workflows in Sandboxes

Matt commented on this one, stating that this is HubSpot’s way of trying to limit the backend processing they have to do. But at the same time, if you’re running over 100,000 people through workflows on your sandbox then chances are your testing processes should be reviewed. Overall this change isn’t really going to affect most people unless they have massive data movements they’re trying to test against.

2) Anomaly Monitoring on Property Updates

Matt loves this one. When something breaks in MOPs, it can be compared to a small pipe leak in a house; you don’t notice until there’s a massive water spot that someone points out to you. This is usually in the form of a salesperson asking you about errors. This is a welcomed feature that will allow more active monitoring to catch errors before they get out of control.

3) Webhook Triggers in Workflows

This is an interesting one as well because it moves HubSpot close to some of the more customizable MOPs platforms like Marketo. Now we can directly trigger a process from a custom app or company login portal, for example. Doing this before would require a convoluted process — this definitely simplifies things.

Read more about HubSpot’s November updates.


Make a ‘marketable’ difference with executable campaigns

This week’s question from the Slack Channel (used with permission from the founder, Mike Rizzo) is: “Is anyone using executable campaigns? We have not used them, but we have some use cases where they can be of value like lead life cycle management and lead scoring. What is a best practice setup?.”

For anyone who doesn’t know, “executable campaigns” were an update to Marketo’s “request a campaign” process which allows campaign workflows to run from another campaign via API, for example.

Matt emphasizes that executable campaigns are great because they execute in a series, not in parallel. In other words, they ensure that one process finishes before the next process starts. It prevents different processes from running at the same time which can cause issues. “If you need to have something happen before something else, executable campaigns are your friend”, says Matt.


AI transparency for marketers

In this week’s segment of AI Navigators, we want to draw your attention to a recent article from HubSpot called, “The Complete Guide to AI Transparency [6 Best Practices].”

We’ve been talking about AI principles and guidelines on the show over the last few weeks and even built a MOPs Advisor custom GPT to help organizations create guidelines, so we want to give a shoutout to HubSpot for bringing this important conversation to the forefront.

A quote we loved from the article was, “Transparency in AI isn‘t just about technology — it’s about aligning AI goals with organizational values, ensuring stakeholder interests are met, and building a culture of openness and

The 6 best practices they outline for creating an AI Transparency model are:

Step 1: Define and align your AI goals.
Step 2: Choose the right methods for transparency.
Step 3: Prioritize transparency throughout the AI lifecycle.
Step 4: Continuous monitoring and adaptation.
Step 5: Engage a spectrum of perspectives.
Step 6: Foster a transparent organizational culture.

One thing that immediately stood out to Matt was that “Foster a transparent organizational culture” is at the end. Matt commented that he thinks this should definitely be closer to the beginning, as one of the first things you consider as an organization — probably right after defining and aligning your AI goals.

Joe responds by commenting that maybe this is a step that spans throughout the entire process, at every step. He also iterates that a “transparent organization” doesn’t just happen overnight. It takes time and effort to lead to a transparent culture, so making it “Step 6” in a list like this feels a bit off.

Another point of discussion between Joe and Matt was about the importance of connecting AI policies to your organization’s key values. There has to be alignment between how you’re using AI and what your company’s values and missions are. There is also the idea of risk being connected as well.

“I strongly believe that there are organizations with so much at stake that they couldn’t risk allowing people just to have free reign and do what they want [with AI]. So I think there’s some connectivity there to what your values are as an organization and what the risk-benefit reward is”, says Joe.


Hot Takes

  • IBM, Meta, and 50 other organizations launch alliance to challenge dominant AI players.
    • Major corporations including IBM, Intel, Sony Group, Dell, Meta, and others are forming an “AI Alliance” along with top universities like Yale, Cornell, and Dartmouth and AI startups like Stability AI.
    • The alliance is seen as a move to challenge the dominance of OpenAI, Microsoft, Google, and Amazon in the AI space.
  • Over 2,000 new martech tools were introduced in the last 6 months
    • Report by Scott Brinker (VP of Platform Ecosystem at Hubspot/Editor at ChiefMartec) and Frans Riemersma (MartechTribe).
    • “The truth is you can build an empire with all the genAI that has been surfacing — and by an empire, I mean, of course, a business.” Frans Riemersma of Martech Tribe
      Generative AI is responsible for at least 73% of the increase




This week, Joe is delighted to return to one of his favorite bands, The Smile, to showcase their latest single “Wall of Eyes”. It connects perfectly to Google’s Gemini demo video and the idea of a “wall of eyes” watching us at all times. It’s a beautiful blue vinyl that will be arriving in January.

Craft Beer:

Matt brought in an extremely colorful can of beer called “Psychedelic Puzzle Factory” from Flying Monkey — a craft brewery based in Barry, Ontario. Flying Monkey has always been known for their extravagant can designs, which they’ve kept promoting despite many other companies falling back to traditional labels. Matt relates this concept of “standing out” back to this week’s story on 2,000+ new march tools in 2023. It makes you think: How can those tools stand out too?


Read the transcript

Disclaimer: This transcript was created by AI using Descript and has not been edited.

[00:00:00] Joe Peters: Welcome to episode 14. On today’s show, Forget Sagittarius, this December belongs to Gemini. Webhook, line, and syncer in HubSpot’s November update. A community question, make a marketable difference with executable campaigns.

[00:00:20] Joe Peters: Our AI navigator segment, seeing AI to I on transparency guidelines. And, hot takes, the AI alliance aims to reboot the industry’s power dynamics. And Martek’s tool rific surge, over 2, 000 tools introduced in the last six months. I’m your host Joe Peters, and today I’m joined by Matt Tonkin. Matt, what are you excited about today?

[00:00:50] Matt Tonkin: More puns, always more puns. But no, I’m excited to talk about Gemini and see, see where Google’s going with its challenge to open AI.

[00:01:01] Joe Peters: Yeah, there’s a lot there. And let me give you a bit of a recap in terms of Google introducing Gemini and having some mixed reviews, and we’ll talk a little bit about that, but I’m going to give a little bit of context and background here.

[00:01:17] Joe Peters: Last week, Google introduced its new AI model, Gemini, and it’s been a hot topic in the tech community, but not all the buzz has been positive. So Gemini comes in three versions. It’s each tailored for specific use cases. The Ultra version has shown exceptional performance, surpassing results on 30 of the 32 widely used benchmarks.

[00:01:43] Joe Peters: But there’s a little bit of controversiality here. Google’s demo video, which was amazing and very, very impressive. It’s titled Hands On with Gemini. Had a little bit of skepticism. There was a bit of a shell game being played there in terms of how the AI was responding in real time to inputs. And so we’re going to have to see what the reality of this is.

[00:02:10] Joe Peters: A one Harry Weber from TechCrunch said, in reality, it was a series of carefully tuned text prompts with still images, clearly selected and shortened to misrepresent What the interaction is really like. And then, we got a tweet from Ethan Mollick who, uh, is at Wharton and is yeah, I have a lot of time for him.

[00:02:36] Joe Peters: He, he, his takes are pretty interesting. And so just one thing from him and then Matt, you and I can dive in. We really don’t know anything about Gemini. Does it beat GPT 4 for real? If so, Why buy such a small amount? Two options. Gemini represents the best effort by Google and the failure to crush GPT 4 shows limits of LLMs approaching.

[00:03:04] Joe Peters: Google’s goal, so the second being Google’s goal was just to beat GPT 4. Three, whatever the secret sauce that
OpenAI put into GPT 4 is so secret and so good that other labs cannot figure it out and can’t catch up. Or for Gemini represents Google’s best revolt, there’s effort, but their ability to
train a good model is limited.

[00:03:29] Joe Peters: Anyway, there, there’s a lot here, but what are you, what’s your take on this so far, Matt?

[00:03:36] Matt Tonkin: Yeah, it was interesting because I watched the sort of demo hands on demo video. And while you’re watching that, you know, it’s very impressive. It seems like it’s doing all this analyzing in real time with.

[00:03:47] Matt Tonkin: Essentially zero additional prompts being generated on part of the user. And yeah, when it’s, when it’s broken down, it’s to me, it’s not a demo video anymore. It’s really here’s our future goal at some point in time, which is really disappointing because you have to be open about that. You can’t just like make it seem like it’s going to do a whole lot more than it wants.

[00:04:12] Matt Tonkin: Yeah, so I was, I was a little disappointed in that and it’s kind of a weird. Weird choice from Google. I don’t know how that got like rubber stamped to go out in that format. I guess it’s a lot more impressive looking than you know, having to iterate 12 prompts, even though that’s the reality of where we’re

[00:04:29] Joe Peters: at.

[00:04:31] Joe Peters: Obviously, there is a bit of expediency in demonstrating how it works. So it can be a bit Important to show a flow and not have all the legs, especially in a short video. I get that it could have been a little line of in the video. This was this was edited for brevity, you know, sometimes. A little bit more transparency there could have gone a long way.

[00:05:03] Joe Peters: And ultimately, it’s not that big of a deal. It’s just condensed what our experience is going to be. And I don’t think that takes away from the impressive AI vision elements.

[00:05:15] Matt Tonkin: No, definitely not. And, you know, I still think it’s definitely And the idea that it barely beats GPT 4. Maybe that’s true, but I don’t know if Every single implementation of new AI has to be this huge leap forward.

[00:05:33] Matt Tonkin: I think technology is much more incremental than people give it credit for. So, so I think, you know, it’s okay if we start seeing companies. Laddering against each other rather than a giant leap forward, every single new

[00:05:47] Joe Peters: piece. I think you’re touching on something which is really important. And that’s the idea of, is this.

[00:05:56] Joe Peters: Is this incremental growth or is this exponential growth? And if you’re talking to the AI enthusiasts, they’re projecting this exponential growth curve, which then is counter to incremental. And I think that’s where we’re, we’re trying to understand our brains really are used. We’re used to incremental growth.

[00:06:23] Joe Peters: We got an iPhone and then we didn’t instantaneously get the iPhone 15 after the first gen came out. It’s not. We had some increments along the way. We’re used to moderate improvements in what we’re doing. Some, some of them are earth shattering. When you change from your Motorola flip phone to an iPhone, it was a pretty big jump, right?

[00:06:46] Joe Peters: But in this instance, in thinking about Where things are at and what, how Gemini was, has been delayed so many times now. I really wonder where what’s happening at Google, like a company of 700 people is outperforming a company with unlimited resources, some of the best minds in this space. And I find that really surprising.

[00:07:23] Matt Tonkin: Yeah, and you get, there’s always the difference between sort of that startup mentality, like, get it done, get it done, and, you know, somewhere with Google where a lot of their biggest moves in the last decade are acquisitions more so than, you know, in house. Not to say that Google’s not doing anything in house, but right, like, there’s a certain scale at that point.

[00:07:49] Matt Tonkin: I think can play into this and just the, um, and maybe it’s the wrong term, but bureaucracy of a larger company, not that open AI wouldn’t have that at its scale as well.

[00:07:59] Joe Peters: No, it’s 100 percent the right term. It’s bureaucracy and moving and shifting in the behemoth is, is pretty hard. And DeepMind was an acquisition that, that didn’t just come out of.

[00:08:17] Joe Peters: Of Google. So we have a lot to, to figure out here. There’s a lot more to the story. The AI wars are going to continue and it’s going to be entertaining for us and I think going to be exciting as a time to be in technology and what that means in terms of uh, what we can do and, and the sort of limitless potential that we can see in our future.

[00:08:44] Joe Peters: But let’s switch gears here a little bit, Matt, and move over to the HubSpot November release updates. And there’s a few things here. So, HubSpot released its November notes, and that included over 40 updates across their hubs, including marketing, CMS, service sales, and more. Here are a few of the highlights.

[00:09:06] Joe Peters: Daily record enrollment limit for workflows and sandboxes. So they implemented a daily record enrollment limit for workflows in sandboxes. Got you. Double bullet there. Sandbox users can enroll up to a hundred thousand records per sandbox account per day. And before this change, sandbox users could enroll an unlimited number of records per sandbox a days, which is kind of strange, but we’ll get to that.

[00:09:34] Joe Peters: Yeah. Let me cover the other two as well. Anomaly monitoring on property updates and that is in regards to the update volume across the CRM using HubSpot AI. This includes a new section on data quality command center that monitors properties and takes actions and users will also have the ability to subscribe themselves and other users to notifications triggered by anomaly issues.

[00:10:03] Joe Peters: And then the last area is on webhook triggers and workflows. And so the webhook triggers provide you with the flexibility to pull data in from your third party systems apps in order to trigger workflows directly in HubSpot on the third party data. Being able to trigger from a webhook will solve a variety of automation use cases for you to automate from your third party data.

[00:10:29] Joe Peters: Now, Matt. Decode some of

[00:10:31] Matt Tonkin: this for us. Yeah I mean, first and foremost, I think the daily record enrollment limit for sandboxes. That’s, that’s just HubSpot trying to limit the amount of backend processing they have to do. But also, if you were running over 100, 000 people through workflows on your sandbox, maybe your testing processes should be reviewed.

[00:10:52] Matt Tonkin: I get maybe some situations where you need to do large scale testing to see if there’s any fault points based on throttling or anything like that. But I doubt this is going to affect most people unless you have, you know, massive data movements that you’re trying to test against. I love the anonymy modeling and monitoring.

[00:11:12] Matt Tonkin: And the reason why is as a mops person, usually when something’s broken, it’s kind of like a little, A little leak in a pipe in a house and you don’t notice it until there’s a big water spot and someone points it out to you. Usually that’s in the form of a, you know, a salesperson or someone saying, Hey, what’s with all of this?

[00:11:33] Matt Tonkin: And by the time you get to it, you know, you’ve got to dig back a little bit. So I like the idea of something active monitoring and, you know, seeing weird things happening in data before, you know, it gets out of control and you can remediate that a lot faster. So I do like that. The webhook triggers is an interesting one.

[00:11:51] Matt Tonkin: I think it, it moves HubSpot a bit closer to some of the more customizable and integratable mobs platforms like Marketo, for instance, where, you know, by doing this. We can directly trigger a process from say a, a custom web app or a, you know, an application that a company has its own, its own portal, its own login.

[00:12:11] Matt Tonkin: Whereas before you would need to kind of do some convoluted processes to, you know, update data and then off of that data trigger things. This can be just a direct process. A direct triggering mechanism. So it definitely opens up a lot more, I think, for companies with their own custom developers.

[00:12:27] Matt Tonkin: It allows you to do a lot more within your own your own platform. So I think this is a win for HubSpot.

[00:12:35] Joe Peters: Yeah. That’s the one thing that we keep on seeing from HubSpot is they’re not taking their foot off the grass at all in terms of innovations and new feature sets that they keep on adding to the platform.

[00:12:47] Matt Tonkin: I will say with HubSpot, and I maybe mentioned this after we went to Inbound, that sometimes they like to announce, make announcements that are a little underwhelming, but in volume. So I think that’s true with the 40. I think we, we found some three, three pretty good ones here. There were a few other interesting ones, but I think sometimes the announcements can be more for volume than quality.

[00:13:08] Joe Peters: That’s fine. That’s fine. We’re used to all these iOS updates telling us about, that we’re not going to use anyway. But there are edge cases and fringe cases that if this is important to you, you’re going to want to have a deeper dive into it. And so maybe what we could do is in, in the show notes, we can put a reference to that release so you can dive deeper if you really need to.

[00:13:35] Joe Peters: All right, let’s move into our community question and thanks to the marketingops. com community for today’s question. And what we have here is, is anyone using executable campaigns? We have not used them, but we have some use cases where they can be of value, like lead lifecycle management and lead scoring.

[00:13:59] Joe Peters: What is the best practice setup?

[00:14:02] Matt Tonkin: Yeah, and first off, this is a very Marketo centric question, but for anyone that doesn’t know executable campaigns were essentially, An update to Marketo’s request a campaign process where you can from another campaign or via API or whatever the case Request a campaign workflow to run.

[00:14:22] Matt Tonkin: The great thing about executable campaigns and why it’s a step up on that is They execute in series, or in, yeah, in series, not in parallel. And for anyone that doesn’t understand that picture, you know, running through a line item on a list and If you’re calling a campaign, whether it’s executable or requesting that starts to run.

[00:14:45] Matt Tonkin: So with an executable campaign, it needs to finish before the next step in the process starts. For a requestable campaign it just starts running and then whatever the next step in the process continues. What happens here is you have all these different processes happening at the same time and you kind of have to start throwing in wait steps and all these issues.

[00:15:06] Matt Tonkin: Executable campaigns solves that. So that’s where, you know, if you need to have something happen before something else, executable campaigns are your friend. The other big benefit is that they pull in token and data from the parent campaign. So whatever called it that program, you can use your token values from it and run it in the executable campaign, wherever it’s located, allows you to decentral or to centralize a lot of processes that way.

[00:15:34] Matt Tonkin: Don’t get carried away with these types of things just because you have the option. There’s always find the best solution. But yes, executable campaigns, that’s for, you know, processes you need to happen in a certain order and consistently. So that’s sort of your best practice setup.

[00:15:52] Joe Peters: All right.

[00:15:52] Joe Peters: Well, that’s, that’s a great question. And thanks, Matt, for clarifying that today. Alright, our next section and our new segment for those of you that maybe missed the last couple of segments is AI Navigators. And each week we’re going to take a little look at something that’s happening in terms of practical use and impact for our colleagues in MOPS as it pertains to AI and the influence and impact that it can have.

[00:16:25] Joe Peters: So this week we have. Six best practices for AI transparency and marketing. And this comes from HubSpot. So we want to give a little bit of a call out to them. We’ve been talking about AI principles and guidelines on the show the last couple of weeks. And last week HubSpot probably because they were listening to launch codes released a series of best practices for AI transparency themselves.

[00:16:51] Joe Peters: And there’s a couple of points here. AI transparency is the It’s the practice and principle of making AI systems understandable and interpretable to humans. And transparency in AI isn’t just about technology, it’s aligning AI goals with organizational value, ensuring stakeholder interests are met, and building a culture of openness and accountability.

[00:17:16] Joe Peters: And that’s a direct quote from the HubSpot article. And in the article, they outlined six best practices. I’m just gonna quickly run through the, the titles here of their six best practices, and then you and I can dive in, Matt. But first, they say define and align AI goals. Second, choose the right methods for transparency.

[00:17:38] Joe Peters: Third, prioritize transparency in AI lifecycle. Four, continuous monitoring and adaptation. Five, engage a spectrum of perspectives.

[00:17:54] Joe Peters: So there’s a lot here and what we, we love this pylon in terms of if there are more people talking about this, we recognize that it’s an essential time for organizations to start to think through things. So what is your first impressions of this map? Yeah, and

[00:18:13] Matt Tonkin: this might be a little nitpicky, but I think one of the things that stands out to me is I would have, you know, number six there, foster a transparent organizational culture around that.

[00:18:24] Matt Tonkin: I’d have that much higher in the list probably right after define your goals. I think that, you know, setting the tone for an organization and how everyone’s using it. Not, I don’t want to say secretive, but being conscious of being open with what you’re doing and how you’re doing it. Both that’s great
for like just learning within the organization.

[00:18:43] Matt Tonkin: Avoiding those conflict of interests. I think I think that needs to be higher up on this list for me

[00:18:49] Joe Peters: Or maybe it’s something that kind of spans all of them and the the the thing is Transparent organizational culture isn’t something that happens overnight You either kind of espouse that value or you don’t and this Making it number six.

[00:19:10] Joe Peters: I agree is kind of wonky When Maybe it could be one of those things that help lead to this, but being transparent culturally in terms of what’s happening with AI is really important today.

[00:19:25] Matt Tonkin: Yeah, definitely. What’s your take on defining and aligning AI goals? Because I feel like you have to be so broad when you’re aligning your goals.

[00:19:34] Matt Tonkin: And then there’s such for individual use cases, right? You almost need tiers of

[00:19:40] Joe Peters: aligning your goals. I think what becomes a no brainer, if there is a use case that aligns with what’s happening today, then, and what your mission is, well then that becomes a no brainer. Okay? But, I think when we start to look at the macro AI connecting to mission, And values.

[00:20:11] Joe Peters: I think the key PE piece there is the values and understanding the alignment between your organizational values. And, you know, we talked about this I think last week, where there are kind of, I, I, I think there are three types of ways of that organizations can look at AI use. One, it can be kind of open, do whatever you’d like.

[00:20:39] Joe Peters: Try and see what you can do. Let’s find ways to work better, more efficient, do cool stuff. So that’s one end of the spectrum. The other end of the spectrum is I want to approve every single use case before it’s executed or even attempted. And then there’s, there’s a huge span in between. And so your value alignment is going to be is going to be tied to your what your tolerance for risk is, and maybe that’s where we get into the challenges with Google with 100, 000 people.

[00:21:15] Joe Peters: Their tolerance for risk is maybe not the same as 700 people. But when we but when we look at this, I think, you know, I actually really strongly believe that there are organizations that there’s so much at stake that they shouldn’t just be They couldn’t risk allowing people just to have free reign and do what they want.

[00:21:40] Joe Peters: So I think there’s, there’s some connectivity there to what your, what your values are as an organization and what the risk benefit reward is. I think that’s another thing that we’re going to talk about in, in, in future weeks. But this idea of if You know, we’re going to have risks declining over time, and we’re going to have benefits increasing over time.

[00:22:05] Joe Peters: And if, when those benefits transverse that risk, that risk curve, and we, we have that tipping point where we move into the benefits greatly, starting to greatly exceed the risk, that’s going to be a whole new era for organizations because the use cases are going to be so impactful that you can’t ignore it.

[00:22:25] Joe Peters: But we’re just still curving up on that tipping point. What we’re seeing as the benefits and impacts that AI can have I helping you write an email isn’t enough Like that’s not it. But and I and I’m and I’m only being a little bit facetious and in that that It can do so much more than that, but that’s not gonna make you Transform your organization overnight.

[00:22:51] Joe Peters: It’s got to be some of Some greater impact, higher use cases,

[00:22:56] Matt Tonkin: right? If you were, if you’re in that high risk category, you don’t need to maybe be the front runner, be who’s doing all this new, amazing stuff with AI. You can sit back and see how other companies approach this you know, play it a bit safe.

[00:23:13] Matt Tonkin: And with less risk, yeah. Have some fun and you know, see what you can do

[00:23:19] Joe Peters: or what you. I think another smart way is you create a mini lab. If you’re a large organization, you have the resources to sign a few people to an AI lab where they can be presented with different use cases to kind of experiment and try around, but they actually understand the parameters around it and walls that they need to set up.

[00:23:41] Joe Peters: So nothing, nothing crazy or bad takes place. So anyway, I, I, I appreciate this. pile on that we’re seeing that these conversations are really important. The, the changes and transformations are coming and you need to start to think through this. And ultimately the more transparent you are with it, the greater I think the return is going to be because you’re gonna have a greater engagement with your, with your teams and employees on what this can do.

[00:24:19] Joe Peters: All right. Well, let’s move into our sponsorship. Thank you, period. So our thanks this week to our friends at Knack for sponsoring today’s episode. Knack is the no code platform that allows you to build campaigns in minutes. Get more engagement in less time with their simple but sophisticated email builder.

[00:24:39] Joe Peters: Visit knack. com to learn more. That’s K N A K. com. All right, now let’s move into our hot takes segment. And I like this next one in the theme of piling on. But we have IBM, Meta, and 50 other organizations launch an alliance to challenge dominant AI players. And this includes on the list Intel, Sony Group, Dell, Meta.

[00:25:10] Joe Peters: As well as some universities like Yale, Cornell, Dartmouth and and then stability AI is in there as well. And so this alliance is seen as a move to challenge the dominance of open AI, Microsoft, Google and Amazon in the AI space. And the group is working around a number of broad categories, including creation of common frameworks for evaluating the strength of AI algorithms, devotion of capital to AI research funds.

[00:25:38] Joe Peters: and collaboration on open source models. Matt, what’s your thoughts here? Yeah,

[00:25:45] Matt Tonkin: it’s a, for me, it kind of resonates with a sort of a net neutrality feel, right. The, the idea of we can’t just let. One or two huge companies control everything and how we do this. But at the same time there you know, those names on this organization list aren’t mom and pop shops.

[00:26:06] Matt Tonkin: They’re, they’re huge

[00:26:07] Joe Peters: organizations. What, what surprises me here, maybe with the exception of Meta, but the others have not made huge strides in AI, at least that I’m aware of. Maybe they, they have some secret things that are happening. You know, Intel’s on this list, but it’s not Nvidia on this list.

[00:26:28] Joe Peters: Mm-Hmm. IBM, Sony and Dell. You know, it’s interesting, I, I’m in Austin this week. I get off the, I airplane and walking through the airport to exit and there’re all these Dell AI ads. Oh. So I, I, I’d never seen that before. Yeah. Maybe they’re doing something, I’m not sure, but it was interesting just not being exposed.

[00:26:55] Joe Peters: I haven’t heard a lot of these organizations making big strides, at least in the generative AI space.

[00:27:07] Matt Tonkin: Yeah, it’s interesting. So, they’re doing it, but to your point, like, Is this, oh, we’re, we’re behind. So let’s team up and see if we can, you know, slow down the people ahead of us. Yeah.

[00:27:22] Joe Peters: Yeah. Well, I think the other part of this is having a multitude of perspectives in sort of flagging or calling out challenges that we have is really important because we’re going to be moving fast and we have to rely on these other parties.

[00:27:42] Joe Peters: Hey, look over here for a little bit because there may be something that we don’t like what the next few steps forward are going to mean.

[00:27:54] Joe Peters: All right, let’s move on to our second hot take. Over 2000 new Martech tools were introduced in the last six months. And this is by Scott Brinker, who I have a lot of time and respect for. He had a great presentation at Moffsapalooza early in November that I really, really loved. And he has this crazy map, right, map that kind of has, it, it ended up being, it started off as a logo for everything, I think in 2011.

[00:28:26] Joe Peters: And now I think it’s a pixel, colored pixel for everything because there’s so many Martech solutions in the ecosystem. And we have A number here at 13, 080 on his map. Wow. And that’s an 18. 5 percent jump in the last six months. And here’s an interesting quote. The truth is you can build an empire with all the Gen I AI that has been surfacing.

[00:28:59] Joe Peters: And by an empire, I mean, of course, a business. And that’s Franz Reersma of Martek tribe. So I think it’s pretty clear the generative AI is at the foundation or root of this. So what are, what are your thoughts on this?

[00:29:20] Matt Tonkin: It’s funny because, you know, to your point of that, when it was the logos and then it was a few hundred logos and then a few thousand I always remember the comments being, at some point this is going to plateau, there’s going to be consolidation.

[00:29:32] Matt Tonkin: And I feel like maybe at one point it didn’t plateau, but it sort of, it slowed a little and then boom, now it’s just so many. And as, you know, Consultant helping clients make decisions on specifically what products to choose. It’s a little terrifying because no one can understand 13, 000. You know, maybe we, maybe we could create an AI for that show.

[00:29:55] Matt Tonkin: But let’s, maybe we don’t, maybe we don’t broadcast that one. That’s our idea.

[00:30:00] Joe Peters: Well, I, I’m going to say if. If what I’ve seen happen is there’s innovations made off these platforms where there’s GPT 3. 5 or 4, and then there are going to be innovations that come out that are just going to kill companies overnight.

[00:30:19] Joe Peters: wHere, you know, the custom GPT, obviously there were a lot of companies that were building wrappers to kind of give you that kind of experience that a custom GPT was. Once that’s released, then that company is no longer viable. So I don’t, I don’t think that we’re going to have, like, I feel like it’s going to be a little bit of a bumpy ride in terms of the additions and subtractions.

[00:30:45] Joe Peters: I think there’ll be some pretty interesting data over the next year on that. And sure, we’re going to see more, but I think there’s, it’s going to be interesting to see what that delta is between the additions and the subtractions.

[00:31:00] Matt Tonkin: Hmm. And how many, how many additions are subtracted before we even get to a one year where he renews this, right?

[00:31:07] Matt Tonkin: Like, how fast is that turnover?

[00:31:09] Joe Peters: And let’s, let’s just also be honest, subtractions don’t happen overnight either, right? It’s not like someone, the, the next day that they saw a custom GPT, they’d build a solution around it. They just decide to close up shop and announce that. Usually it’s a slow and gradual decline, right?

[00:31:30] Joe Peters: What would be interesting if we could, you know, put on this map is the economic performance of each of these companies, right? And, and then we’d have some interesting stories on the ebbs and flows here, but I think it’s going to be pretty dynamic over the next year. All right. Let’s move into our final segment of the day.

[00:31:56] Joe Peters: Our pairing segment. So this week. We have one of it’s I can’t believe that I’m already here and that I’ve gone back to the well to my, one of my favorite bands for a new song, but the smile, which is a side project of a couple of Radiohead members, including Tom Yorke, they released a single called Wall of Eyes, That’s what we’re going to listen to today.

[00:32:28] Joe Peters: And I do think it really, it was a no brainer to pick them this week because I feel after seeing that Gemini video, the idea of a wall of eyes watching us all the time is really something for us to, to really think through. So it’s a, it’s a great track from a great band. Some blue vinyl. It’s on my Christmas wish list.

[00:32:56] Joe Peters: Hopefully it arrives in January when it’s when the, when it’s the album officially comes out, but great new music. And for those of you who are new to Launch Codes, you’re, you hear a little bit of the music at the beginning of the show, and then we give you a nice little segment at the end of the show so you can see, hear, and listen.

[00:33:18] Joe Peters: And Hop over to your favorite streaming platforms to listen a little deeper if you’d like, but that’s, that’s it for our music this week, Matt, what do you have in terms of our of a beverage this week or something different? I don’t know. You, I, this is a surprise for

[00:33:34] Matt Tonkin: me. So it is a beverage this week.

[00:33:37] Matt Tonkin: So what we’re going with this week, so it’s from a brewery called Flying Monkey and that’s in Barrie, Ontario. It’s called Psychedelic Puzzle Factory. So, yeah, their cans are amazing. And for anyone not watching this, I don’t even know how to describe it if you’re just listening, but It’s like a

[00:33:58] Joe Peters: colourful, colourful beer can acid trip.

[00:34:03] Matt Tonkin: And, and they have, so Flying Monkeys, this is sort of their, when, you know, the craft beer craze sort of kicked off. You had all these companies doing crazy cans, crazy names, pun names, whatever the case to really, I guess, stand out. And, and Flying Monkey, I feel like has kind of kept doing that even while a lot of other brands are sort of, you know, going back to a more traditional look.

[00:34:26] Matt Tonkin: And I think that just, you know, it’s great beer, but it just reminds me of how. How you want to stand out in, you know, 13, 000 new marking ops apps, right? It’s that Gimmicky maybe how do you how do you stand out and not to say it’s gimmicky for flying monkey It’s sort of their their thing now, and I think they did it better than the rest But that that’s why I chose this beer

[00:34:52] Joe Peters: Awesome.

[00:34:53] Joe Peters: Well, I I’ve actually had the chance to have a couple of their beers in the past and it’s if you have a If it ever comes across your way, you’re not going to go wrong with the flying monkey. Even if it’s just to embrace the art.

[00:35:07] Matt Tonkin: It’s great. There’s so many little details on the can. It’s I really do love the designs.

[00:35:12] Joe Peters: Yeah, it’s amazing. Alright, well thanks Matt, and thanks to everyone for listening. Be sure to subscribe, rate, and review. You can find us on Spotify, YouTube, and Apple. Stay connected with us on LinkedIn, or by joining our newsletter, also called LaunchCodes. using the link in the description. And as always, thanks mom for watching.

[00:35:33] Joe Peters: See you next week.

[Episode 13] We Made You a GPT

Episode 13 of Launch Codes is officially live! This week, Lauren (RP’s VP of Consulting) joins Joe to discuss:


Listen Below


MQLs are overrated

On “The Marketing Millennials” podcast last week, Daniel Murray welcomed Google’s Demand Gen Marketing Manager, Steve Armenti. They discussed the future of B2B marketing and one thing that stood out in particular was the idea that MQLs are “made up”.

“It’s a symptom, not the disease”, comments Lauren. In other words, MQLs inherently aren’t the problem. They become problematic when there is a deeper issue of misalignment across silos in the organization — misalignment between Marketing and Sales around what a true MQL should look and feel like.

This often happens when the “lead scoring threshold” or “high value actions” aren’t matching up with what people actually desire from your sales process. Joe agrees with this sentiment, using the example that filling out a form doesn’t necessarily mean you are ready for a phone call.

Lauren expands on this point, using the analogy of a brick and mortar store. In a store, many different types of people come through the doors, all looking for different things. Each of these people has different needs that you can likely identify through their behavior. Similarly, if you treat your website as a “digital storefront”, you can find digital behavior information to guide your sales process.

Joe and Lauren both agree that timing your engagement with a lead is extremely important as well. “Don’t make their phone ring at 8:30 in the morning out of the clear blue and expect to get a conversation. The onus is on the speaker to be understood, not the listener to do the understanding”, says Lauren.


Employees can’t resist the “tech-tation” of AI at work

A Salesforce survey of more than 14,000 workers across 14 countries uncovers that many users of generative AI in the workplace are leveraging the technology without training, guidance, or approval by their employer.

Some of the specific findings from the survey include:

  • 55% of respondents have used unapproved generative AI tools at work.
  • 40% of generative AI users have used banned tools at work.

Joe immediately relates these findings back to last week’s Launch Codes episode, where we covered the overall lack of AI guidelines and principles at many organizations. It seems like the solution for many companies is to leave teams to fend for themselves or outright block the use of tools. “We are in a challenging time where individuals are moving faster than organizations are responding”, says Joe.

Joe also recalls a time when search engines like Yahoo first came on the scene in the 90s. Similar to what we are experiencing today with AI, there was no structure around using web search citations for your research at work — and social media was completely banned from the workplace later on too.

Lauren emphasizes that, for many organizations, the easy path is to ignore change and pretend it’s not happening. Joe reflects on this, highlighting that when there’s a lack of understanding around new technology, the default decision is to block it entirely. Joe and Lauren both agree, however, that this situation is kind of “unblockable” — considering that everyone has a personal computer in their hand and AI is already integrated into countless tools we use on a daily basis.

And in many ways, MOPs as a function is well-equipped to deal with decisions around AI usage and guidance. “We’re the ones I think that are most exposed. We’re just at this really interesting intersection of technology, innovation, and untapped business potential that, you know, developers or IT don’t really care to lean into yet”, comments Lauren.


OKRs, KPIs, and goals for a B2B SaaS company

This week’s question from the Slack Channel (used with permission from the founder, Mike Rizzo) is: “What are some good examples of OKRs, KPIs, and goals for a B2B SaaS company?”

This is a very open-ended question. Despite the potential for nuance depending on the size of your company, public considerations, boards to please, etc, the answer can be boiled down to retention and growth. The most interesting part of 2023, Lauren says, has been the pivot away from looking at long-term customer value to actual contract value.

Before this year, cost per acquisition for a customer was measured against the number of years you’d hope to have them around. But over the last 12 months, there’s been this shift from LTV to ACV. Everything we do now is in service of working our way towards closed-won business. We are constantly contributing to net new customer growth or reducing attrition.

“Show me the money, right? It is that simple”, says Joe.


AI Navigators

For this week’s segment of AI Navigators, we’re excited to announce that we’ve created our own custom GPT called “The MOPs AI Advisor.”

Last week, we shared our template on AI guidelines and principles that people could download and adjust based on their company needs. That was a bit more of a hands-on approach, which some prefer. But we know many others will be much more excited to jump into this GPT version (you must have a ChatGPT Plus account to access it).

Try the MOPs AI Advisor custom GPT.

The custom GPT itself has been trained on that previous template we created , and it does two things:

First, it lets you generate your own AI principles and guidelines tailored specifically to your company. You can use your prompts to feed it information about your organization and the amount of control over AI you want to have. From there, it’ll give you a draft that’ll act as a strong foundation for these conversations.

Second, which Joe believes will be more interesting and more helpful in the long run, is that it’ll allow you to upload specific AI use case ideas you have and get feedback on the possible implications or challenges that you didn’t consider.

For example, one of our experiments at RP was to use AI to generate personalized content for nurture campaigns in Marketo. Now, we can put that use case concept into MOPs AI Advisor and get helpful feedback on aspects to consider as we move forward.

Lauren is incredibly excited about using the custom GPT, and comments how it’ll be interesting to see the reactions from people who aren’t used to working with an AI tool that’s been trained for a concentrated use case. She used the example of getting a “pre-trained” puppy that is already housebroken.

Joe loves this analogy and iterates that we’re definitely doing some of the work for others and we hope it makes their lives a little easier.


Hot Takes

  • AI-powered digital colleagues are here. Some ‘safe’ jobs could be vulnerable.
    • Artisan AI will unveil “Ava” in December 2023, an AI-powered digital worker designed to integrate with human teams.
    • It will automate the job of a sales representative, marking a significant improvement over chatbots and similar AI tools already on the market.
  • Happy Birthday ChatGPT
    • “A year ago tonight, we were probably just sitting around the office putting the finishing touches on ChatGPT before the next morning’s launch. What a year it’s been.” – Sam Altman tweet, November 29.
    • Joe and Lauren reminisce on their first experiences with Chat-GPT and what a wild year it’s been.




This week’s pairings are possibly our most fortuitous yet! Joe brought in a stunning record entitled “Jubilee” by the Philadelphia-based alternative band Japanese Breakfast. The vinyl itself has a lovely lime tint to it as well. The songs Joe wanted to highlight from this album are “Be Sweet” and “Paprika”.


This album pairs beautifully with Lauren’s “Mexicali” blend by Arbuckles’ Coffee, which also happens to have some sweet and spicy notes to it. It’s another Tuscan local coffee company with an interesting history: It was founded by two brothers at the end of the Civil War in the 19th century who initiated the concept of roasting coffee and sealing it up in one-pound packages.


Read the transcript

Disclaimer: This transcript was created by AI using Descript and has not been edited.

[00:00:00] Joe Peters: Welcome to episode 13. On today’s episode, MQLs are overrated, employees can’t resist the tectation of AI at work. Question from the community, we’ll look at OKRs, KPIs, and other acronyms.

[00:00:19] Joe Peters: Our AI navigators segment, get ready for RPGPT. And in our hot takes, safe jobs might be in danger and happy birthday, chat GPT. I’m your host, Joe Peters. And today I’m joined by Lauren. Let’s get right into it. Lauren, what are you excited to talk about today?

[00:00:40] Lauren McCormack: I’m excited about it all, Joe, but I have to say you know me, I love a good KPI chat.

[00:00:47] Joe Peters: Excellent. Well, I know there’ll be a lot for you to share. Let’s move into our first segment here on MQLs are overrated. And so last week, Daniel Murray had Steve Arminetti, Google’s demand gen marketing manager on his podcast, the marketing millennials. And they talked about the future of B2B marketing.

[00:01:11] Joe Peters: And the one part that really caught our attention was the stance that MQLs are made up. So. If MQLs are a marketing created concept where leads are scored for sales outreach, and so focusing on a single individual in a buying group can lead to an incomplete understanding of the account. And it’s important to identify the entire buying group, including individual roles and functions.

[00:01:38] Joe Peters: And Lauren, you and I know a lot about that when we get into ABM. So what is your take on this? Commentary. And is it just trying to say something salacious so people get interested? That’s kind of my gut on this. That’s

[00:01:55] Lauren McCormack: a good way to put it. It’s a symptom. It’s not the disease. The reason the MQLs aren’t perceived as money in the pocket of the sales team and craved instinctually are because they’re misaligned.

[00:02:10] Lauren McCormack: And that’s a misalignment across silos in the organization. Around what a true MQL should look and feel like it doesn’t have the proper blend of demographic firmographic behavioral intent not necessarily purchased but behavioral intent to necessitate a conversation you’re likely seeing a situation where your lead scoring threshold or your High value actions are misaligned with what people actually desire from your sales process.

[00:02:48] Lauren McCormack: If they’re not ready for a conversation. You shouldn’t call them. That is the controversial hot take, I think. Yeah,

[00:02:56] Joe Peters: just because you filled out a a form to download a paper doesn’t mean you want to be called, right? Like we know, we know that, right?

[00:03:05] Lauren McCormack: You said you wanted to go to a webinar. You didn’t say you wanted a sales pitch.

[00:03:08] Lauren McCormack: And I’ve had the, the opportunity over the last couple of decades to sit in many a boardroom and do sales and marketing alignment workshops. And I frequently, having been a salesperson, I was nae. Rather, rather well compensated AE in my early days. And you know, broke a couple of commission structures myself, but what it comes down to is sitting down with your sales and marketing team and thinking about your website, like a virtual storefront and thinking about, say you own a jewelry store.

[00:03:43] Lauren McCormack: And you, you see people walking through the door every day. Sometimes you see a couple walk in hand in hand with tennis rackets on their shoulder and, you know, eyes odd and Burberry, and they walk up to the designer engagement ring counter and they’re holding hands and they’re pointing directly at what they want.

[00:04:00] Lauren McCormack: And sometimes you see a little kid come in and go straight to the cookies that are sitting on the counter. And sometimes you see You know, a woman come in with a broken watch and walk up to your service counter. You can get those same indications from behavior digitally and you handle them differently and you triage them accordingly and you don’t serve them all up and say, well, they all walked in the front door.

[00:04:25] Lauren McCormack: That means they’re all at the store and they all want to shop because it’s just not the same, you

[00:04:29] Joe Peters: know? You’re basically saying that we need to put more cookies on the table to get more people in. That’s, that’s basically. Put

[00:04:37] Lauren McCormack: cookies in front of the people that are buying the designer engagement rings instead of the little kid perhaps.

[00:04:42] Lauren McCormack: Or maybe put the right cookies in front of sales is really what I’m saying at the heart of the matter. And I think having an agreement with sales where You know, I was just talking with Adobe earlier this morning about how you handle cherry pickers in the sales process when they go in and they don’t want to wait and they want to ungate everything and get all the leads.

[00:05:00] Lauren McCormack: They complain because they’re saturated with volume. When they don’t get enough, you’ll see them go in and they’ll cherry pick and they’ll try and call leads before their time, but they’re, they’re not ripened yet. And one of the other analogies that I would use in these workshops was around the fact that you might see the level of your when you’re out and you know, it’s your human, right?

[00:05:18] Lauren McCormack: And you see them. And maybe they’re, it’s the most inopportune time, right? Maybe they’re walking out of a
gym room, locker, a locker room

[00:05:29] Joe Peters: from the jewelry store to the gym room

[00:05:31] Lauren McCormack: locker. Maybe they’re leaving, you know, a numb mouth, even if you see this human being and you’re like, wow,
this is my person. I know that it’s meant to be guess what the time and the place that you approach them.

[00:05:43] Lauren McCormack: Matters. You could completely be off putting and, and make them never want to engage with your brand again by acting too soon. And I don’t know that that resonates fully with people that are under quotas or have, you know, a rigid list of target accounts or are afraid for job security. That, that, that’s a great point.

[00:06:04] Joe Peters: That really is a great point. Timing is everything. And that is part of the art of this. Where everyone wants it to be science and very easy, very easy handoff and a hundred percent qualified hand a handoff to sales that they’re going to, you know, just you know, catch fish right out of a barrel.

[00:06:28] Joe Peters: That’s not it. Yeah. That’s

[00:06:30] Lauren McCormack: not me. It can be predictable and it can be scientific. As long as you have a method for obtaining consent. So, you know, make sure they know what they’re getting themselves into when they fill out that contact us form. Make sure they have the opportunity to hand raise and fill out the contact us form at any point in their journey.

[00:06:48] Lauren McCormack: Make sure they don’t ever have to hunt for it, but don’t make their phone ring at eight 30 in the morning out of the clear blue and expect to get a conversation. The onus is on the speaker to be understood, not the listener to do the understanding.

[00:07:04] Joe Peters: Yeah. Well, hopefully we’ve made things clear, not murkier on this one, but there’s a lot to this and I think it’s.

[00:07:17] Joe Peters: You know, just an important part of our work and helping our clients really help understand and navigate this handoff is so essential.

[00:07:26] Lauren McCormack: Yeah, I think the BDR function might be dead or is dying or has changed radically. Not the MQL, not the MQL yet. I just think we need to question what kind of volume and quality balance is appropriate for 2024.

[00:07:43] Joe Peters: I think that’s a great way to end that part of our launch codes this week. So let’s move into our next area, which is also pretty, well, a little bit controversial in the sense that now we’re seeing some data points that half of generative AI adopters are using unapproved tools at work.

[00:08:07] Lauren McCormack: No surprise.

[00:08:08] Joe Peters: A recent survey of more than 14, 000 workers across 14 countries.

[00:08:14] Joe Peters: And this was by Salesforce, I think. Uncovered that many users of generative AI in the workplace are leveraging the technology without training, guidance, or approval by their employer. And so those numbers are 55 percent of respondents have used unapproved generative AI tools at work. And 40 percent of genera generative AI users have used BAN tools at work.

[00:08:40] Joe Peters: So there’s a lot here. And I think, you know, if this goes, we go back to our, our, our launch codes last week, we talked about this whole idea of guidelines and principles, and organizations are leaving their, their teams to either fend for themselves, or just outright blocking everything. And people are kind of working around that and the very easiest way to do that is, you know, picking up your phone and asking, asking the, the, the questions to help inform the work you’re doing.

[00:09:17] Joe Peters: So until we’ve kind of banned those from the workplace or we’re in some, we’re in a little bit of a, a challenging time where people are moving faster than organizations are responding.

[00:09:31] Lauren McCormack: It’s so easy to be misunderstood. I think it’s so easy to fear like a science fiction villain, and it’s so easy to outright.

[00:09:43] Lauren McCormack: Try and, and put your head in the sand and pretend like it’s not happening instead of embracing the change. I have to wonder if search engines were this controversial when they first came out in the workplace. Well,

[00:09:56] Joe Peters: I re yes. I remember, unfortunately, I can remember those times, and I was in

[00:10:04] Lauren McCormack: college. I hadn’t quite gotten I remember,

[00:10:06] Joe Peters: I remember Well, the very first time that Yahoo was available, I remember speaking with one of my My profs at the time, cause this is in the, this would have been in the mid to late nineties and there was no process or ability to kind of site, right?

[00:10:27] Joe Peters: Like there’s no structure for using a web search as part of your research. And then you translate that to the organizations. There was no, I remember social media being completely banned from the workplace. Interesting as well, right?

[00:10:46] Lauren McCormack: That’s right. If I think back, you’re right.

[00:10:49] Joe Peters: There’s always these times where there’s a lack of understanding, so it’s the default move is just to block.

[00:10:57] Joe Peters: Yeah. But I think we’re in a situation where it’s going to be slightly unblockable, in the sense that it Person. Everyone has a personal computer in their hand, right? That’s right. And, and unless they’re checking them in at the door and we’re, and we’re acting like the NSA, you know, people are going to be using it.

[00:11:18] Joe Peters: So I think he, he kind of have to think through that.

[00:11:21] Lauren McCormack: It’s already baked into so many different platforms too. It’s like, have you not had generative predictive texts in your Gmail at work? So I think a blanket policy shows a inherent misunderstanding of the potential. And a denial of the potential for innovation and market share.

[00:11:41] Lauren McCormack: It was interesting to me to hear, I was speaking with a friend that I’d met from a zoom kind of thought leadership event that I go to on a regular basis. And she, and I met one to one to talk about AI. And she’s in the process of going through an acquisition by a major FinTech company, and she’s struggling with her SEO and her content strategy because she’s been so heavily reliant on AI and now it’s gonna go.

[00:12:13] Lauren McCormack: Against the policy of the acquiring company. But when she presses to find out what the policy is, it doesn’t exist yet. She just knows she’s not allowed to use AI and, and it’s going to change her productivity. drastically post acquisition, and she’s really worried about it, you know? And she’s, she’s tempted to, to challenge the policy, you know, and I, I encouraged her to, to be honest.

[00:12:40] Joe Peters: Well, the politics of acquisition are, are always a challenge and, but you know what, this is, we’re in this, This state of a general fear, we’re in a state of rapid advancement, and there’s it’s really hard for organizations to keep up unless they’re they’re understanding and switching the switching the story to be.

[00:13:13] Joe Peters: This is to our benefit. That’s right. And if this is to our benefit, then How are we enabling and using and you know, creating boundaries.

[00:13:25] Lauren McCormack: Yeah, probably guardrails, but it’s early adopter advantage for sure. And I think in your session it was interesting to hear a couple different points made at MOPS Appalooza.

[00:13:37] Lauren McCormack: One around the fact that certain people within the organization have already. Probably broken through every boundary that you could imagine to set because we were waiting too long to set the protocols and parameters. But also I thought interesting that the only people really fit to navigate the policies and to create the policies.

[00:14:04] Lauren McCormack: Sit in marketing ops, you know, and it’s maybe if you have like a dev ops team, maybe if you have a really strong it and operations team, maybe, maybe, but we’re the ones I think that are most exposed. We’re just at this really interesting intersection of technology and innovation and. Business on untapped business potential that I don’t think, you know, developers or it really care to lean into.

[00:14:33] Lauren McCormack: They can choose not to yet, but we really are faced with it every day.

[00:14:39] Joe Peters: Yeah, it’s a very interesting dilemma of can. I agree with you that the mops function is probably the most well equipped to think through this can benefit so much from generative AI today, and it’s whether or not there’s the ability to translate up.

[00:15:02] Joe Peters: That’s right. On what might be the appropriate. guidelines or guardrails or principles of the organization. And that that’s a really good segue into a segment that we have in a couple of right after our community question. So maybe we should go to our community question and then get to this next point, because this is a really, this is a challenge that all organizations are facing right now, but Let’s, let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

[00:15:31] Joe Peters: So community question, thanks to the marketingops. com community for today’s question. And this one I know is near and dear to your heart. And what we have are, what are some good examples of OKRs, KPIs, and goals for a B2B SaaS company? This is an awesome question.

[00:15:55] Lauren McCormack: That’s an awesome question, but it’s also like, like, the most open ended.

[00:16:00] Lauren McCormack: sO, I’m gonna start.

[00:16:01] Joe Peters: There’s probably a thousand answers to this,

[00:16:04] Lauren McCormack: right? There’s a thousand and then there’s one. You know what I mean? At the end of the day, there’s one. And so I think it, it will always depend on the size of your company. Okay. An enterprise B2B SaaS is going to look different. Has a board to please, might even have, you know, public considerations depending on who we’re talking about.

[00:16:24] Lauren McCormack: Startup with very different demographics and firmographics has totally different goals. But at the end of the day, I think the most interesting part of 2023, I hope I look back in the rear view and find it interesting after all the chaos, but has been the pivot away from looking at long term customer value.

[00:16:49] Lauren McCormack: To actual contract value. So instead of saying when my cost per acquisition for a new client is X, but I hope to have them around for, you know, seven years. So that’s how I’m going to, you know, work the valuation on, on the return on my investments. I think the most interesting pivot in 2023 has been from LTV to ACV, like actual contract value.

[00:17:14] Lauren McCormack: So your North star has to be, I don’t care if you’re in B2B SaaS or you own a lemonade stand, it needs to be your contribution to close one business. Everything else, reverse engineer against how you get to close one business, right? So maybe you love doing specific marketing activities because they’re just your favorite question.

[00:17:37] Lauren McCormack: Everything fail fast and think around how each ounce of energy you expend as a marketer in a day is contributing to net new customer growth or preventing attrition. So those to me are the key levers. That when I’m client side or working with people that are trying to be more mindful and
strategic with their time, energy, and finances, it’s retention and it’s growth and everything else.

[00:18:03] Lauren McCormack: Yeah.

[00:18:04] Joe Peters: So we’re, we’re basically show me the revenue or show me the money. Right. It’s just how I’m wired.

[00:18:10] Lauren McCormack: Yep.

[00:18:12] Joe Peters: But it, it is that, it is that simple. Everything does break down from there. So I, it is, there are the flavors of the month and there are the flavors of the year and let’s see what, what we’ll get in 2024 though.

[00:18:27] Joe Peters: I think we’re going

[00:18:28] Lauren McCormack: to see a lot of account based motions. I’m seeing a lot of talk around I think it’s a reaction against the surplus of capital and the, the notion of. Building top of funnel as wide and as vast and grabbing as many MQLs as possible and shoving them through this machine and seeing what the output is on the other side.

[00:18:51] Lauren McCormack: We just don’t have that budget anymore. And so we have to be super mindful, apply it surgically, but at the end of the day, it’s still those dollars are still meant to go out into war and fight a battle to come back with revenue. You know,

[00:19:08] Joe Peters: 2024 is going to be really interesting. It almost makes me think we’re going to have to, we should have a segment on our predictions for 2024.

[00:19:14] Lauren McCormack: I’d love that. I almost wore a Santa hat today. Cause I’m just in like the 2024 planning holiday vibe these days, but a year end recap. Yeah. And, and some 2024 trends will be a lot of fun.

[00:19:27] Joe Peters: Yeah. We’ll have to put that on the agenda to work through. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks to the marketing ops. com community for that.

[00:19:37] Joe Peters: And now let’s move into our next segment on AI navigators. We just started this last week, which is each week we’re going to give a little bit back to the community in terms of some of our thinking and best practices and just really kind of enablement really of the community to take some of these conversations and some of these challenges into their own hands.

[00:20:02] Joe Peters: And so this week. We took a little bit of time, had a little bit of fun in, in the nerdiest of ways, and we created our own custom GPT and we call it the Mops AI Advisor and what, what we, what we’ve done, so last week we shared some templates, templates on guidelines and principles that People can take a massage based on, you know, where their organization is at.

[00:20:34] Joe Peters: And that’s a little bit more of a hands on exercise and an input. And I know some, some of us like to work with that, but then other, others are much more keen to hop into this. GPT era. So we have this custom GPT that’s been trained on all of that content. And it does two things. First, it lets you generate your own principles and guidelines for your organization.

[00:20:59] Joe Peters: And so you can use your prompts to outline a little bit. about the style of your organization and, and the control that you want to have. Do you want to be free and open or do you want to lock everything down and get approval for every AI use case or you’re somewhere in the middle? And so this GPT allows you to generate the guidelines and principles for your, for your, for your own organization, at least in a draft form that will help you enable you to have these conversations.

[00:21:32] Joe Peters: And then the second piece That, that I think actually could be more interesting and more helpful in the, in the longer run is it allows you to upload through your prompt a use case for it to then say, okay, like your use case, but maybe you need to think about. A, B, C and D to make sure that you’re on the right track in terms of, let’s say, privacy or use of data or any of those things that, you know, might we, we may need to temper the excitement of the community a little bit by giving a little feedback into the excitement of different AI use cases.

[00:22:20] Joe Peters: So Lauren, what are, what are your initial thoughts on our, our little experiment? I,

[00:22:27] Lauren McCormack: you know, I have a soft spot in my heart for my GPT and it would be interesting to see someone that hasn’t. Spent quality time with their GPT. Someone that doesn’t use theirs to recommend recipes or sitcoms or holiday movies, or alongside, you know, helping to work on projects and get marketing initiatives completed.

[00:22:57] Lauren McCormack: Sit down and really experience what it’s like to use AI that’s been trained. I think so many people might. You know, dabble a bit and forget the part about training the algorithm so that it can actually deliver back to you. Results that, that meet your standards. This is like a pre trained puppy. It comes to you ready, right?

[00:23:23] Lauren McCormack: It’s housebroken and it’s, it’s ready to rock. So it’d be fun to see. I love

[00:23:27] Joe Peters: that. I love that. And this has been an episode of analogies today. You’ve really outdone yourself this week.

[00:23:32] Lauren McCormack: Oh, thanks. It must be the coffee. But yeah, no, it’s, I think it’s, it’d be really fun to watch in real time as somebody explored the potential of trained AI.

[00:23:45] Lauren McCormack: Instead of just, you know expecting it to, to be pre trained. I love it.

[00:23:51] Joe Peters: We’re doing some of the work for them. We’re doing some of the work to make your life a little bit easier. Right. But I do like housebroken as a, as a concept we’ve moved from the gym to the to being housebroken. So I think we’re, we’re taking some steps in the right direction, but you know,

[00:24:10] Lauren McCormack: What I like to do in my free time, right?

[00:24:14] Joe Peters: Well, if, if we, if we think about some of the experiments that we’ve worked on here at RP with personalization and you know, our, our, as you know, some of our colleagues have done some great experimentation there on generating some personalized content for nurture campaigns and how that could work with Marketo, well, putting in that use case.

[00:24:42] Joe Peters: And having the Mops AI advisor think about that use case, it gives you great food for thought back. Oh, have you thought about this, this and this before you proceed? It’s kind of like that giving you that you know, that. Good voice at the back of your head. That’s like, Hey, maybe you should think about a, B and C before you get too excited.

[00:25:06] Joe Peters: Right? Absolutely. Just a little bit of a cautionary tale. I feel like,

[00:25:11] Lauren McCormack: I’ve often served as that cautionary tale, that canary in the coal mine in certain circumstances, and it’d be nice to have the onus on, on AI. Instead of me to, to think about all the potential disastrous outcomes, but it could be good outcomes too.

[00:25:27] Lauren McCormack: And it could be optimizations that perhaps that you, you weren’t thinking we’re within reach. I, I like the fact that when you come up against a problem, you can ask AI how it would solve said problem. By using AI, there’s a bit of a circular logic that you can use on the tool to have it define its own role in supporting you to get to your goals, which is pretty fun.

[00:25:53] Lauren McCormack: I don’t know that a lot of people have gotten that far yet. Yeah,

[00:25:55] Joe Peters: exactly. Well, this will be live on December 5th, right around the time the podcast comes out, because Lauren and I are recording this right now, just after 1 p. m. Eastern on Monday. So we have a little bit of time to get things ready for you, but we look forward to having you test it out, try it out, and it’s not going anywhere.

[00:26:19] Joe Peters: It’s going to be there. Hopefully it’ll serve some utility for at least until the next crazy AI advancement that we’ll have to rethink things. But these custom GPTs I think are going to have, I don’t think it’s a very. Risky prediction that we’re going to see a lot of custom GPTs in 2024, especially when the store opens,

[00:26:43] Lauren McCormack: where can where can, where can our listeners or our viewers access this agent?

[00:26:49] Joe Peters: So on, it’ll be in the show notes, but also. on the site our website, revenuepulse. com, or if you follow us on LinkedIn, you’ll be able to see posts on this. The way it works is you, you’re going to click on a URL. And as long as you have a paid chat GPT license, you’ll be able to use the custom GPTs.

[00:27:11] Joe Peters: That’s the limitation today. I they’re not allowing free access to if you have a free account, you’re not going to be able to ask access custom GPTs yet. Eventually they’ll probably unlock that too, but right now you’re going to need, if you have a paid account, then you can, you can test it out. And so there’ll be enough links, and that’s the way they have to work now until there’s a story, you have to actually have a link to be able to go to it.

[00:27:38] Joe Peters: In the future, you’ll probably be able to browse for

[00:27:40] Lauren McCormack: it. I found that out the hard way when I realized on Friday, when you sent me the link that I couldn’t access that my credit card had expired and I was hanging out in 3. 5 for a couple of days on unbeknownst to my own self. And so I need to go and get my new card out of out of my purse and hop in and give it a test drive myself today.

[00:27:59] Joe Peters: Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s fun. I, and I think that’s, that’s the part of it for us. We’re we’re. Techno technologically oriented people. We like to try and test new things. So it’s, it’s, it’s kind of fun to see what we can do and just how powerful and consistent it is. That’s what, that’s what I like about it. That it’s, it’s going to be that voice of reason not only in assisting you in generating the principles and guidelines, but also when you have these ideas around AI use cases, just giving you some sober second thought.

[00:28:33] Joe Peters: Before you jump into things, but all right, well, let’s move on to our next segment, which actually we need to thank our, our sponsor this week. So thanks to our friends at Knack for sponsoring today’s episode. Knack is the no code platform that allows you to build campaigns in minutes. Choose from hundreds of real world emails and landing pages using the Inspiration Center.

[00:28:58] Joe Peters: Visit knack. com to learn more. That’s K N A K dot com. Let’s move on to our hot takes, Lauren. We’re seeing AI powered digital colleagues are now here. Some safe jobs could be vulnerable. So artisan AI we’re going to see so many new startups but in this AI space over the next little while, but they’re unveiling their AI powered digital work worker, I think it’s sometime this month.

[00:29:33] Joe Peters: And really what they’re going to do is automating the jobs of a sales representative and making what they say is a significant improvement over chatbots or similar AI tools in the market. And so here’s a quote after a 15 minute conversation with Ava, coincidentally, my eldest daughter’s name, it’ll have the ability to build a knowledge base with that information to create prospects, says Carmichael Jack.

[00:30:03] Joe Peters: It’s like having sales software, but it comes with a manager account executive built in. She can make suggestions, edit campaigns, join meetings and take notes he adds. What do you think Lauren?

[00:30:18] Lauren McCormack: It is the future of work TBD on how well it spins up at first. And we’re going to hearken back with nostalgia for the authenticity of a human relationship.

[00:30:31] Lauren McCormack: And it’s, it’s going to be like the white glove service, the premium, you’re going to be willing to pay for a brand experience that has authenticity and human components to it. Will A virtual agent probably handle your return for your order from LL Bean. Yeah, I’d imagine. So, and we’re already halfway there.

[00:30:56] Lauren McCormack: Will it happen tomorrow that, you know within the next couple of months, we’ll see a third of the sales force replaced by virtual assistants. I don’t think so. Not quite yet. And there’ll always be a, a group of people that need to be sold to by a human being. Yeah, but the AI is getting smarter by increments and leaps and bounds that we can’t as human beings I don’t think fathom.

[00:31:21] Lauren McCormack: So I’m, I’m curious on what the timeline and the change disruptive, you know, amount of change that we’ll see and how quickly we’ll see it will become. But I do have some smart friends that I’ve been chatting about with, for this, this kind of a motion for a long time, and they have emphasized that whether or not we’re reluctant to accept it, it is the future of work.

[00:31:43] Joe Peters: Yeah. And I think once again, if we take this. I’m going to say this overarching principle that this is the worst AI we’re ever going to see.

[00:31:53] Lauren McCormack: That’s right. It’s only going

[00:31:54] Joe Peters: to get better. And if we take the next evolution of Ava and as your sales representative, and she has a video interface, it’s actually going to be a lot better than calling a one 800 number and waiting on hold and pressing a whole bunch of buttons.

[00:32:12] Joe Peters: So we’re going to have this real shift where at some point. The benefits are going to outweigh the drawbacks. That’s right. And however, you’re, you’re right. Like the in store experience is going to be so important or that trade show experience or that experiential physical touch is going to make a big difference because there’s going to be so much of this.

[00:32:44] Joe Peters: Available.

[00:32:45] Lauren McCormack: It’s like when our parents didn’t want to shop online, they were like, I’d never buy anything from a website. Now they’re ordering their groceries for pickup and they sit in the parking spot and they hold up their cell phone with a number.

[00:32:55] Joe Peters: Right? I know. I know. It’s going to happen. It is an amazing time.

[00:32:59] Joe Peters: Well, we’ll see. We’ll see where, where artisan goes which is a kind of a funny, funny, funny name for a sales representative. They’ve got some interesting positioning there, but all right, well, let’s move on to our second hot take. And that is a happy birthday to chat GPT. It’s really, really hard to believe that it’s only been a year and how.

[00:33:28] Joe Peters: Rapidly advancement has been and I

[00:33:33] Lauren McCormack: just feel like it’s it’s perfect timing to make some like Altman memes of him Just looking like kind of like like a little bit miffed at a party with a little party hat on, you know I don’t know. It’s a it’s it’s it’s an interesting milestone. They’ve hit but wow Did they just crash into the wall of their your?

[00:33:55] Lauren McCormack: anniversary of their birthday. And the weirdest and most chaos, I think you said it was like watching game of thrones. I feel like it’s been, it’s been a rocky stint here for the last month or so. And they were the golden, it was theirs to lose, you know, that, that IPO and all the beauty of the valuation that was floating about them and.

[00:34:14] Lauren McCormack: Gosh, it got weird.

[00:34:17] Joe Peters: I think things have gotten back to a little bit uh, back to normalcy in some ways. And I think with the new board there, there will be, it is going to set them up differently for the future. They were just, well, let’s, let’s not get into it. We’ve talked too much about that over the last couple of weeks, but when we look back at the year, I’ll never forget.

[00:34:41] Joe Peters: sitting, waiting for my daughter’s hockey practice to end, which is a Canadian dad is something you, you end up doing a fair bit of, and I was just killing time. On my phone and saw this GPT thing come out and went on right away. And I, it, one, I found it so amusing because it was, I love the, the generative capacity of it, but it still had a lot of inaccuracies and wasn’t as good 3.

[00:35:14] Joe Peters: 5. And once it moved to four, it was a whole other, a whole other game. I thought it was. A nice novelty, but it, and, and did kind of good things. We still had to do a lot of work and cleaning things up or refining the thinking or, but four was a whole new level. And when that, when, when we kind of looked under the hood at four in March and in April, when May came along and as a team, we decided to think through what this meant for our business and.

[00:35:49] Joe Peters: And created our little AI committee to get started. You know, it’s, it’s really funny to think back to that, that we really didn’t know anything back then. We’re

[00:36:00] Lauren McCormack: going to look back on these conversations and that task force. And even just when that code, that open source code, you know, changed everything.

[00:36:10] Lauren McCormack: And we’re going to. We’re going to have feelings, strong feelings, one way or another, you know, five, 10 years from now about how the world was changed, you know, it’s a, it’s a interesting moment in history to have witnessed at the front lines and here’s hoping it makes for a better society for us all, you

[00:36:31] Joe Peters: know, we’ll see, well, I did, I did see a trailer and I’m going to forget.

[00:36:37] Joe Peters: Yeah. The name of it now, but it was a movie where AI was not the villain. So one, one out of a hundred, or the AI could be something that. We all end up liking and seeing the benefits of

[00:36:52] Lauren McCormack: maybe it’s like Loki, like he seems like a villain at first, but by the end of everything, he’s sitting at the center of it all.

[00:36:57] Joe Peters: Right. Who knows where, well, it’s all we can say is that 2024 is going to be really interesting and the pace is not slowing. And the competition is heating up and with Google Gemini now being. Pushed another month out till January. We’ll have to, we’ll, we’ll see what what we get there. And it could be another enter interesting moment for us to.

[00:37:26] Joe Peters: To think about for for 2024. All right. Well, let’s move on to our pairing segment. And this week, I thought we’d have a little bit of breakfast to go along with your coffee. Nice. So, our Our artist this week is Japanese Breakfast. Now let me, let me just bring over the album. You and my husband

[00:37:54] Lauren McCormack: have like the identical

[00:37:55] Joe Peters: taste.

[00:37:56] Joe Peters: Too much indie music. And so for those who are watching who can see on YouTube or the Spotify video version, this, here’s the, the cover. The album art is beautiful and a really lovely kind of lime shade to this Clear see through vinyl. And they’re an interesting band out of Philadelphia, although she’s from Eugene, Oregon, Michelle Zahner.

[00:38:27] Joe Peters: I think that’s how you pronounce her name is the lead singer, beautiful voice, always really textured, layered songs, and. So this week we have a little bit, put the production team to the test. So during the intro, we’re going to have, you’re going to, you would have heard B sweet because that’s a great baseline and a good intro to, uh, to, to launch codes this week, but at the end, little spice for the end will be paprika and that’ll be at the end of the show.

[00:38:59] Joe Peters: And so for those of you just hearing this launch code as your first one, we. At the very end of the segment, we play, you know, a minute or so of the track so you can hear it for yourself as a kind of long extended outro.

[00:39:14] Lauren McCormack: That’s awesome. Have you read her book?

[00:39:16] Joe Peters: No, I didn’t even know that she

[00:39:18] Lauren McCormack: had a book.

[00:39:18] Lauren McCormack: My husband loves it. It was sitting on our coffee table for the better part of the end of last year and I
think it’s called Crying in H Mart, but it talks about her experience you know, as a first generation American. It’s super interesting. Oh,

[00:39:32] Joe Peters: beautiful. Well you’ll have to send me a photo of that so I can track it down and, and have a look.

[00:39:37] Joe Peters: I’m a big fan. Her, her voice is, she really shows off her voice in paprika. You’ll, you’ll hear you’ll hear that. But yeah. So how are we pairing our Japanese breakfast with coffee today?

[00:39:49] Lauren McCormack: So today we have the Arbuckle’s coffee. It’s the Mexicali blend. It’s their most noteworthy, I would say, and what’s interesting is it has a sweet start and a little bit of a spicy finish.

[00:40:03] Lauren McCormack: But what’s the most interesting, I think, is the history of the company. Before. This company existed. People would buy coffee green and roast it in a skillet themselves, but two brothers at the end of the Civil War in the 19th century initiated the concept of roasting coffee and sealing it up in one pound packages, so you didn’t have to do that.

[00:40:27] Lauren McCormack: And so it’s called the Original Cowboy Coffee. It’s a Tucson Local, original, you’ll even find an Arbuckle’s in the Tucson airport, which is super adorable. But yeah, it’s a, it’s perfect at the holidays. It’s got some sweet, it’s got some spice. And I had to feature it.

[00:40:45] Joe Peters: Well, it’s a perfect pairing for the Japanese breakfast because we’re starting with B sweet and ending with paprika.

[00:40:50] Joe Peters: I don’t know. Like we just, this is pretty fortuitous in terms of our, our combo today for our pairing. It could be the best pairing we’ve had. To be honest,

[00:40:59] Lauren McCormack: when you mentioned it was Japanese breakfast and that it was sweet and paprika. I’m like, these notes are, these notes are spot on. I dig it. Awesome.

[00:41:08] Joe Peters: Well, thanks Lauren. And thanks to our listeners for listening this week. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review. You can find us on Spotify, YouTube and Apple. And stay connected with us on LinkedIn or by joining our newsletter using the link in the description. And as always, thanks mom for watching. See you next week.

[00:41:30] Lauren McCormack: Take care.

[Episode 12] AI Guidelines and Principles in MOPs

This week on Launch Codes, we’re thrilled to debut a new segment called “AI Navigators.” In every episode, we’ll focus on a different element of AI, helping marketing ops professionals through the challenges and opportunities it presents. In our 12th episode, Joe is joined by Andy Caron, President of RP, for an in-depth discussion on:


Listen below


The drama continues at OpenAI

We recorded last week’s episode around 9am on Monday. At that time, OpenAI CEO and co-founder Sam Altman had been fired and was moving to Microsoft. By the time we’d published that episode on Tuesday, the landscape was completely different.

On Tuesday, November 21st, the whole team at OpenAI was threatening to quit and then by Wednesday, November 22nd, OpenAI announced that Sam Altman would return as CEO, along with a new board and Greg Brockman as president.

Joe and Andy discussed the chaotic and uncertain nature of the AI industry, highlighting the disorganized thought process surrounding AI’s direction and governance.

They also touched on the significant transformation in OpenAI’s governance, moving from a non-profit to a more technologically mature board structure.

This shift aims to stabilize the leading technology in the space, emphasizing the importance of avoiding flakiness and ensuring a focused, effective approach.

Joe and Andy left with a hopeful outlook, suggesting that these recent changes might mark the end of a turbulent chapter and the beginning of a more structured and promising future in AI development.


5 ways MOPs can elevate campaign planning

As companies plan for 2024, MOPs teams should take the opportunity to get noticed as potential game changers. These tips come from Megan Michuda at

While it may be a bit late in the year for marketing ops to influence annual campaign strategies, these tips are valuable throughout the year.

Andy emphasized the importance of MOPs being proactive in creating these plans and adapting to market shifts. She noted the critical role of MOPs in leveraging data for strategic planning and ensuring data accuracy for future analysis.

“Our market has shifted so dramatically over the last several years on even a monthly, if not quarterly basis,” Andy said. “And so having that plan for how do we recalibrate, how do we think about modifying what we’ve set, not in stone, but sort of prepared for that process and know that that is part of the plan.”

Joe stressed the need for MOPs to think strategically and align their contributions with the organization’s overall objectives and key results (OKRs), saying “We get enveloped in this world of execution and operations… but thinking strategically about how MOPs can ladder up where you contribute to the OKRs and how you’re adjusting throughout the year is super important.” Remember to use data in a strategic way to support decision-making.


Track a lead using Acquisition Program vs. lead source

This week’s question from the Slack Channel (used with permission from the founder, Mike Rizzo) is: “Does anyone actually use Acquisition Program in Marketo? If our business uses lead source, would that be sufficient?”

If your business is using lead source and that is sufficient for you, you may or may not want to take the time to use Acquisition Program.

Andy explained that while Acquisition Program is automatically set when a Marketo landing page is used, it requires additional steps to set up if using a global form or a non-local landing page. She highlights that Acquisition Program, being program-specific, offers detailed insights into what content is effectively driving form submissions, which complements the broader view provided by lead source about how people are reaching the content.

When paired with lead source, Acquisition Program can actually be quite powerful. Here’s an example: Someone came in via LinkedIn or via Google search. That’s going to tell you how people are getting to your content. But the Acquisition Program is going to tell you what content is actually getting that form fill for the first time.

If you still aren’t sure, err on the side of creating more data that could be useful in the future, rather than regretting not having it when needed.


AI Navigators

We teased a new segment at the beginning of this post. It’s aimed at helping MOPs navigate the challenges and opportunities presented by AI.

One of Joe’s inspirations for starting this segment came from an experience he had at MOPs-Apalooza.

He was on a panel about AI and the future of marketing ops. The moderator asked the audience if anyone had AI guidelines within their organization — and the only hands Joe saw raised were from the RP team.

This lead Joe to create a template for AI Guidelines and Principles that you can download (and it’s ungated).

The template is divided into three sections, focusing on different AI use philosophies in organizations: open use, moderate restrictions, and high control environments. He emphasizes the importance of organizations identifying where they fit on this continuum and establishing guidelines to ensure everyone is aligned on AI usage.

Many organizations haven’t yet considered the implications of AI use, especially regarding data privacy and security risks. Andy also stressed the balance between AI and the human element, advocating for a human-centered approach that augments rather than replaces human decision-making.


Hot Takes

  • What are the MOPs skills of 2024?
    • Joe and Andy discuss Sara McNamara’s list of the best B2B MOPs skills for 2024
  • Amazon is launching AI school
    • Amazon aims to train two million people in AI as fight for skilled workers ramps up with Microsoft and Google. Workers with AI skills have the potential to earn up to 47% more in salaries.
  • Doom scrolling: It’s time to log off
    • People are ingesting too much negative news and psychology experts say it’s causing people to spiral and can exacerbate anxiety, and depression. Joe and Andy dove into how people in MOPs, and the wider population, can protect themselves from experiencing these situations.



In “Pairings” this week, Andy and Joe delve into the intersection of music and literature. Joe shared a favorite album from The Strokes called “Room on Fire,” drawing parallels between its tracks and the recent developments in AI. He highlighted songs like “Between Love and Hate” and “Automatic Stop” as reflective of the AI industry’s current state, ultimately selecting “Reptilia” for its irresistible hook.

Meanwhile, Andy took us into the realm of science fiction with Dennis E. Taylor’s “We Are Legion (We Are Bob),” the first book in the Bobiverse series. This intriguing novel explores the concept of a self-replicating spaceship navigated by a human consciousness, leading to philosophical questions about identity, replication, and the nature of consciousness itself. Andy’s enthusiasm for the audiobook version adds another layer to this recommendation. Join us as we explore these creative realms in “Pairings,” where music and literature come together to enrich our understanding of the world.


Read the transcript

Disclaimer: This transcript was created by AI using Descript and has not been edited.

[00:00:00] Joe Peters: Welcome to Launch Codes, the podcast about marketing operations, artificial intelligence, and more. Each week, you’ll hear from experts as they share insights, stories, and strategies. Welcome to Episode 12. I’m your host, Joe Peters. On today’s episode, we’ll the curtains close on OpenAI’s latest drama, how mops can take center stage for campaign planning, A community question, hot on the trail, what’s the best way to track a lead?

[00:00:34] Joe Peters: We’re introducing a new weekly segment called AI Navigators, and Hot Takes, marketing op skills that mope indoors, class in session, Amazon announces a school for AI, and Unplugged to Unwind, cutting the cord on negative news. Today I’m joined by Andi. Good morning, Andi. Good morning, Joe. What are you excited about talking about today?

[00:01:02] Andy Caron: I am really excited about this idea of a school around AI. I think that’s really cool. I’m definitely interested in what we’re looking at with this open AI drama, if that’s going to be going away. And finally, I’m always interested in talking about It’s balance and mental health. So that sort of unplugged to unwind theme is one that I’m, I’m keen to chat about as well.

[00:01:29] Joe Peters: Yeah, we, we’re trying to do a lot of that work here at RP as well. So that’s something that really hits home. That’s for sure. So let’s move into their first topic on the drama continuing at OpenAI. Mercifully and thankfully, Sam Altman is returning to OpenAI as CEO along with President Greg Brockman. The deal also includes some new board members.

[00:01:57] Joe Peters: And so last week when we recorded things at 9am on Monday, November 20th, everything was up in the air. The whole team was quitting on Monday sorry, Tuesday, November 21st. And then by Wednesday, we kind of came full circle, and there’s a return with a new board, and there’s a whole series of rumors around why this happened.

[00:02:26] Joe Peters: Andy, what’s your take on the drama, and how, how do we sort of move on from here, I guess? I

[00:02:39] Andy Caron: think this just is a wonderful tableau of just how all over the place everyone is with AI, right? Is it up? Is it down? Is it sideways? We don’t know. We want these people. No, we don’t. We’re quitting. No, we’re not. I, I think the whole thing to me just perfectly illustrates actually in a nice little capsule how discombobulated we are around what to do with this, who should be doing it and what the primary focus should be and who should be focusing on those things.

[00:03:18] Andy Caron: I think it’s just all over the place and I think this is a perfect example that clearly articulates just how. a disorganized the entire thought process around it is.

[00:03:31] Joe Peters: It’s also, I’ll agree with you on that. There’s a lot for people to do individually and a lot for organizations to do. It is kind of oddly symptomatic, I think is not an unfair.

[00:03:48] Joe Peters: Term to or a call to make on this the board governance I think was the real shocker for me and understanding how the board was structured and how it wasn’t really equipped to move from being kind of that non profit structure Open AI in its, you know, original format kind of idea that this would be an open for all type of structure so Moving to this new model with a new board that’s maybe has a little bit of technological maturity.

[00:04:29] Joe Peters: I think can only serve us well because what we don’t want is flakiness by the leading technology in the space. It’s too important. Correct. Yeah, I agree. So hopefully we can just move on and that this is the end of a chapter or as Some people like to say the end of the first inning. So we have a long game ahead of us and hopefully we can just move on.

[00:04:59] Joe Peters: The, all the other rumors on what are the. Reasonings behind it. What is the technology development that could have triggered something? Is there something massive in terms of a leap forward in the capabilities of the AI? Who knows? Q Star idea could be an amazing new development if this sort of Unbridled learning and I’m going to say optimization kind of agent exists to be able to process and learn in real time, the optimal way of solving a problem or achieving a task.

[00:05:42] Joe Peters: You take that to stock trading, for example, or derivative trading or any of those things, a model like that unleashed could be super interesting, but that in and of itself, I don’t think is really what happened here. We had. Personality conflicts in a very oddly structured board that led to, I’m going to say, and I don’t think I’m stretching to say this, an amateur approach to letting go of a, of a CEO that in a way that probably did wasn’t, wasn’t justified from anything that we’re seeing.

[00:06:26] Andy Caron: That makes sense to me. I mean, I think at the end of the day. It’s also about where people with this level of intelligence feel valued. And if the value wasn’t being recognized, it doesn’t surprise me that he might have thought about stepping away as well.

[00:06:44] Joe Peters: Well, there’s, Sam Altman has a bright future no matter what he decides to do.

[00:06:50] Joe Peters: Indeed, right. And whether that was going to be at Microsoft or OpenAI. Right. I’m just happy that it’s resolved and maybe we can close this chapter and move on. But. It does, it does seem to be resolved and hopefully we won’t have to chat about this type of development and drama anymore. Why don’t we just switch gears and move to our next topic on five ways mobs can elevate the annual planning process.

[00:07:23] Joe Peters: And this came from Megan Mishuda at martech. org. And it was around the planning process for 2024 and how MOPS team take an opportunity to get noticed as game changers. And there was a couple of things here that I thought was really interesting in the article. One was the idea of building a planning template with business objective, key actions and reporting measurements.

[00:07:52] Joe Peters: Another one was around streamlining information flow, and then a couple of other areas around translating data into strategy, annualizing sorry, prioritizing the annual plan, and establishing a process for adjustments throughout the year. This, to me, Andy, just seems to be good thinking, good planning.

[00:08:14] Joe Peters: And good guidance for our colleagues and MOPS to kind of prepare and arm themselves to make a contribution not only to the planning process, to set a course for themselves for the next year.

[00:08:29] Andy Caron: I agree. I think the thing that I like about it most is encouraging MOPS to lean into and prepare for the creation of this plan before it’s asked of them at the 11th hour.

[00:08:42] Andy Caron: In a flurry of activity to produce it. Once marketing realizes that mops is holding the keys to the bulk of their performance and success data from the previous quarters and years. So in that proactivity, I think that this is wonderful. Number five is my favorite, the, the establishing a process for adjustments.

[00:09:06] Andy Caron: Our market has shifted so dramatically over the last several years on even a monthly, if not quarterly basis. And so we can talk about anticipated ROI, but if you’re using the same playbook that you were using for Q4 last year, assuming you’re on a fiscal based annual model, right, against the standard calendar, it’s not going to work.

[00:09:29] Andy Caron: It’s a completely different… And so having that plan for how do we recalibrate, how do we think about you know, modifying what we’ve set, not in stone, but sort of prepared for that process and know that that is part of the plan.

[00:09:47] Joe Peters: I couldn’t agree more. I think we’re sometimes our colleagues have their challenges is that we are marketing operations.

[00:09:58] Joe Peters: So we get. Enveloped in this world of execution and operations. It’s not, there’s no surprise there, but thinking strategically about how mobs can ladder up where you contribute to the OKRs and how you’re adjusting throughout the year is super important. And then the other area that I love is the idea of data to strategy.

[00:10:28] Joe Peters: As custodians of the data that is so important to leadership and. In terms of our marketing performance and execution data. This idea of laddering it up and thinking about it in a strategic way can only serve our MOPS colleagues better, right? Like, that should be a real focus.

[00:10:52] Andy Caron: Yes, I think streamlining the flow of that information, talking about, okay, what are we going to be?

[00:11:00] Andy Caron: Measuring against what’s the critical data for us to have and then where are we sourcing it and how are we interpreting it? I can’t tell you how many times I’ve sat down with a client and said, okay What are your if not OKRs and KPIs and what’s the data that you have to? provide benchmarking for that And we’ll go in and look at the field or fields that they’ve indicated and they’re, they’re not being consistently maintained, they’re 90 percent blank.

[00:11:28] Andy Caron: There’s not a strategy around how to even ensure that that data is there for future you to be able to interpret it. And so that I think is the other half of this is if we’re planning now, it also tells us what actions we need to be doing currently to ensure that the data is there later when we go to do the analysis.

[00:11:49] Joe Peters: 100%. So, this is great advice from from Megan and really something that everyone should be thinking about. We’re getting close to the very end of the fiscal year so there may or may not be a huge window to make the contribution to the next year’s plan. Regardless, having this thinking and taking a little bit of time to go through these types of questions can only serve you well.

[00:12:20] Joe Peters: Alright, well, let’s move on. To our question from the community and marketingops. com. Thanks for, for making this contribution this week. So our question is, does anyone actually use Acquisition Program in Marketo? If our biz uses LeadSource, would that be sufficient? So why don’t we start there,

[00:12:44] Andy Caron: Andy? Yeah.

[00:12:45] Andy Caron: Yeah. So Acquisition program is an interesting data point. It is set within the specific Marketo program where acquisition has occurred. Realistically, that may or may not always be the case. Sometimes it’s the marketing acquisition, but you purchased the lead three years ago and it was blank, so you filled it in.

[00:13:06] Andy Caron: I didn’t understand acquisition program for the first year that I had back in 2012. I, it wasn’t clear how to use it. There wasn’t good instruction. On what it was for, how it was used necessarily. It was in the documentation, but it was a little loosey goosey. And so what I would say is if your business is using lead source and that is sufficient for you, you may or may not want to take the time.

[00:13:33] Andy Caron: To use it acquisition program is automatically set. If you’re using a Marketo landing page, local to the program, and someone fills out a form on that page. But if you’re using a global form and then putting it on your website, or you’re not using a landing page that is local to the program, you have to take the time to create a flow step to actually set the acquisition program inside of your.

[00:14:01] Andy Caron: Flow steps in your automation. And so what that’s going to mean is that you’re creating that additional data point. Now, the way that I like to think about acquisition program is this is program specific and it ladders up to potentially what you might think of as the tactic what Marketo calls your channels.

[00:14:23] Andy Caron: And when you set the acquisition program, it sets a tag of acquired, which then also syncs over to the SFDC campaign, if you’re using Marketo paired with SFDC and connecting that data. And so when paired with lead source, it can actually be quite powerful. Lead source to me. is what led to the acquisition program, right?

[00:14:47] Andy Caron: So they came in via LinkedIn or via Google search or what have you. So that’s going to tell you how people are getting to your content. But the acquisition program is going to tell you what content is actually getting that form fill for the first time. And I think there is good valuable data there if you choose to collect it and to use it.

[00:15:08] Andy Caron: I think really sufficient is a, is such a valuable data. a, a unique case by case term, right? What is sufficient for one business might not be sufficient for another, or it may be sufficient for now, but it won’t be sufficient for future six months or 12 months in the future. You, or let’s say you get promoted and your replacement, they may want or need that data.

[00:15:35] Andy Caron: I always err on the side of create more data that You think will be useful. Don’t create data just to create data, but create more data if you think it will be future state useful, create it now, and then if you don’t use it, you can always deprecate it, erase it, get rid of it, whatever. But if you have it and you need it, it’s a much better place to be than if you need it and you don’t have

[00:15:59] Joe Peters: it.

[00:16:01] Joe Peters: Right. So this is, this is kind of like a strategic housekeeping kind of decision where, you know, it doesn’t
really hurt. But it could be a problem later on if you don’t have it.

[00:16:18] Andy Caron: Well, I think it’s about identifying unique data sets, right? What brought someone into the system as a lead source isn’t the same as what brought someone into actually filling out a form and giving you their information for the first time.

[00:16:34] Andy Caron: And so having those two separate data sets if they’re useful and understanding that they are separate and why they’re different from each other and differentiating them strategically, I think is really the key

[00:16:46] Joe Peters: here. Yeah. More is better in this situation. So, all right. Well, thanks, Andy. And thanks to our marketingops.

[00:16:56] Joe Peters: com community for this question this week. Now, keeping consistent with the needs of the community is really the inspiration for this next segment. that we’re going to be calling AI Navigators. We’re going to do this each week. We’ll be looking at a different element of AI to help our MOPS colleagues in thinking through some of the challenges and opportunities that AI is going to present.

[00:17:30] Joe Peters: When I was at MOPSpalooza, it seems like That was a month ago, but it was still, we’re still in November when I was on AI panel, the Paul Wilson, who was the, who is leading the panel discussion, asked the crowd, how many had AI guidelines? How many of the participants in the room had AI guidelines? And I’m pretty sure it was only the RP team members that put their hands up.

[00:18:06] Joe Peters: Yes. Yes. That was it. In thinking about that, we know that most of our community is using ai, or at least has, has tried it. I thought it might be helpful to share some of our thinking at RP so the community could use that to inform some of their thinking, not providing things that are gated, just a link for people to downloads.

[00:18:38] Joe Peters: We’ve created a a template that people can use just internally to help. I’m going to either foster an internal conversation, personal exploration around this, or internal to your team or group to start to think through some of these things. So, the document is divided into three sections. One on kind of the philosophical AI use models for organizations.

[00:19:14] Joe Peters: And, and maybe I should explain that a little bit. I think there are three different philosophies in organizations. One is an open use free reign use AI, however you want in, in some organizational con constructs, that’s. That’s really helpful, and you want as much creativity and learning as possible. A middle of the road approach would be some moderate restrictions, which are, A, don’t put up our data, don’t put up our client data.

[00:19:51] Joe Peters: Kind of think about those things or several areas for restrictions before you do it. And then there’s high control environments, and some of our clients are in that space where every single use case needs to be approved. And nothing can be done with AI unless it is approved. So organizations need to think where do you fit in that continuum and then determine some guidelines and principles that can be shared internally so that everyone’s on the same page.

[00:20:26] Joe Peters: So this template document that we’re, we’re going to be posting on our website and in the show notes as well is just a place for people to come and take This information, food for thought, and be able to use that to fuel some conversations that are pretty important in organizations. Because in the absence of any kind of outline or guidelines or principles, individuals get to choose how they’re going to use AI.

[00:20:57] Joe Peters: Which may not always be the right model for organizations.

[00:21:06] Joe Peters: Any thoughts there, Andy?

[00:21:08] Andy Caron: I think that this is an important conversation, and I think some people haven’t even thought to have it yet, to be honest, which is interesting, they’re, they’re so busy thinking about if they could, they haven’t had the should we conversation you know, I reviewed this Again, I, I know I’d seen it prior, but I, I went through it a little bit more deeply just with a newer lens of not, you know, the spring and innovation and lots of new stuff coming forward.

[00:21:38] Andy Caron: And I, I think the thing that was most interesting to me through my current lens is first around the data privacy and security and the risks inherent with what kind of data you put in particularly open source or open models. First, and just how risk adverse I’ve seen clients be when you’re talking about data and data modeling and AI.

[00:22:09] Andy Caron: aNd then on the other side of that completely, the How do we balance AI and human element in there, I think is a wonderful addition, right? How do we look at human decision making and augmenting human with AI as opposed to replacing them or making that the focus as opposed to the people doing the work with AI as an assist?

[00:22:41] Joe Peters: I think that human centered Approach is really important and as well because our mops colleagues are generally the more technically proficient. Team leaders in marketing. There’s a chance for our mops to play a real leadership role in this space. Because if this thinking isn’t happening elsewhere, there’s a chance for you to say, well, put up your hand and say, we may need to be starting to think about this and this is a foundation that we can have a bit of a conversation about.

[00:23:21] Joe Peters: There’s, there’s, there’s nothing proprietary here or anything. This is just food for thought to help. And enable you in making some of these decisions that are, which are really important for organization.

[00:23:36] Andy Caron: Agreed. The one thing I, I don’t think that it necessarily dives in as, as deeply as I would like that I think has also been a focal point for our own organization is around the socialization of what’s happening.

[00:23:51] Andy Caron: We talk a lot about training and preparedness, but I think there’s also an aspect here around how the work that’s being done is socialized, is shared, built upon, becomes a foundation for someone else’s. I think that’s another aspect of this where it needs to be not just an organizational approach, but also an organizational utilization.

[00:24:18] Joe Peters: Well, Annie, don’t, don’t scoop our future segments here. There’s, there’s, we, we need to keep it enough for, for our future. future weeks here, but week by week, we’re going to start to talk about these things. And there are other really important parts around organizational culture, AI literacy, AI councils, learning and, and considering what all of the opportunity can mean for an organization.

[00:24:47] Joe Peters: There’s a lot here. But I think moving on from this is just a first part of the conversation. Yeah, just a first first. We want to give you bite sized chunks every week. And this is week one in having that conversation as this in this A. I. Navigator segment. All right. We can’t forget to thank our sponsors.

[00:25:13] Joe Peters: So thanks to our friends at Knack for sponsoring today’s episode. Knack is the no code platform that allows you to build campaigns in minutes. Get to market 95 percent faster with Knack. Visit knack. com to learn more. That’s K N A K dot com. All right, let’s move into our hot takes segment. And I love this first one on what are the mop skills for 2024.

[00:25:39] Joe Peters: And Sarah McNamara shared this list of the best B2B mop skills. Based on job descriptions. And the list, Marketo HubSpot at the top, Tableau second, Excel three, followed by SQL, Salesforce, and Google Analytics. Where to start here? So, what do you think, Andy, about this list?

[00:26:05] Andy Caron: I like it. I think that there’s nothing on this list that surprises me per se.

[00:26:14] Andy Caron: But I do think that sequel is almost synonymous with Tableau. And so those two, not that they’re redundant by any means, but one is an extension. of the other. And so I think that the, the, the two are sort of almost slashed is, is interesting. I think also the fact that there’s no mention of other code Python AI.

[00:26:40] Andy Caron: That was,

[00:26:40] Joe Peters: that was, that was what I thought was missing here. Yeah. And, and that’s a, that’s a skill that we’ve been really nurturing here at RP. Exactly. But the other, the other ones here, um, are really just the core of our business, I would say.

[00:27:01] Andy Caron: They are. The other piece that I might anticipate, anticipate.

[00:27:06] Andy Caron: Be seeing added in 2024 is around CDP as a discipline and data architecture. I think that’s another piece that’s
really going to become a core MOPs skill that is a necessary part of the team.

[00:27:25] Joe Peters: Right. And there has been some really interesting conversations around, well, MOPs. subsume a data ops kind of function in organizations.

[00:27:36] Joe Peters: And if being the custodians of such important data, there is a real shift in that mindset and thinking that those skills are going to be super important moving forward as well.

[00:27:49] Andy Caron: Yes, I had a really interesting conversation at Mousepalooza with the CMO at OpenPrize and we agreed that we felt like the trend was going to be to move away from being a database marketer to being a data marketer.

[00:28:05] Andy Caron: And I think that is the theme that I have front and center for me as I’m looking at trends and where we’re going to be headed in the next year or two.

[00:28:15] Joe Peters: I love that. I hadn’t heard that before, but I do love

[00:28:18] Andy Caron: that. I coined it. So you’re welcome.

[00:28:19] Joe Peters: A little TM in the corner of that post. All right. Well, let’s move on to another hot take topic here.

[00:28:32] Joe Peters: And that is about Amazon launching. So the Wall Street Journal reports that Amazon is wanting to train two million people in AI as it fights for skilled workers. And so they’re offering free training in a program centered around eight online courses. There’s, there’s a lot more details in here, but. I think conceptually, this is a really interesting move by Amazon, not only to kind of democratize this learning, but also identify talent for them to recruit for their future AI workforce needs.

[00:29:18] Andy Caron: I agree. I think that this is one of those things that you need to have on your resume and it’s a fantastic item to add if you’re still in school and you’re looking to bulk up before you start to job hunt. I think this is one of those perfect. Items that’s paired, or if you’re returning to the workplace after having taken some time post 2020, 2021, I think this is going to be huge.

[00:29:46] Andy Caron: I’m curious to see if the, what the 2 million audience will be comprised of, who will make up the bulk of that, or if it will be very differentiated and, and multifaceted.

[00:30:01] Joe Peters: Interesting. We may have had a little glitch in the space time continuum there. I lost you for a second. And so. Just in case, do you want to just recap your last thought?

[00:30:12] Joe Peters: I

[00:30:12] Andy Caron: was saying that I thought it would be interesting to see who the, what the two million person audience was comprised of. If this is students that are looking to bulk up their resumes, people that are returning to work after maybe having taken some time away, if it will skew toward one particular age group or population or if it’ll be fairly differentiated in who ultimately ultimately…

[00:30:36] Andy Caron: Receives and completes the training that Amazon’s going to provide.

[00:30:42] Joe Peters: Okay, that, that makes, that makes sense. It’s very interesting. I think all the big players are democratizing the learning, which is super important. I think we’re seeing that, that everywhere now, and there’s a lot of opportunity to, to learn.

[00:30:57] Joe Peters: So you put your hand up and dive right in as, as deep as you would like. Alright, let’s move to our third topic this week on doomscrolling. It’s time to log off. This is a story from Wired. com and we’re seeing that people are ingesting too much negative news. And social media algorithms tend to elevate the most contentious content.

[00:31:23] Joe Peters: So feeds are showing you things that will elicit a visceral or emotional response. And negative news can… Increased anxiety, depression, PTSD. And so a professor from the University of Vermont told Wired that this idea is that stress is cumulative in this area. And one thing starts stressing you out and then another and another and another.

[00:31:54] Joe Peters: And you’re spiraling in sort of this scrolling fed loop of, of I’m going to say anxiety. Yeah. And so I think we’re in a, we’re in a situation where. It’s important for, for us to figure out ways to either stop the scroll or take the breaks or look for other, other ways to fill in the moment that might be a little bit more positive and healthier for us.

[00:32:29] Andy Caron: Yeah, I think the generalized level of anxiety that exists for a lot of people these days is reaching a fever pitch. It’s not tenable. I was chatting with someone recently, and we were talking about the difference Today, of being sent to Europe on a business trip versus a hundred years ago, a hundred years ago, we’re traveling from Chicago.

[00:32:52] Andy Caron: You’d get on a train, you’d get to the steamer ship. Then you’re looking at least a three week crossing. By the time you get over there and get to your destination, you’re going to do other things. You’re probably going to set up other meetings, et cetera, and then you’re going to head back. So we’re talking about what at minimum for an important business meeting in Europe, a three months.

[00:33:11] Andy Caron: Period of time and your work. Supported you in taking that time because that’s the time it took to get there. That was the pace of life. I don’t think we’ve had a chance in the last 100 years to evolve from a nervous system, from a composition of the chemical aspects of our brain to deal with the fact that today if I have to go to Europe.

[00:33:35] Andy Caron: I’m working all day, I’m grabbing my bag, I’m going, I’m hopping on a red eye, there’s Wi Fi on the plane, so I’m going to try to work while I’m on the plane because I need to use that time to be efficient. I might get a little sleep, then I land, I grab a cup of coffee, I like boost myself back up, I maybe get a couple hours of sleep, then I, you know, go out.

[00:33:54] Andy Caron: for a business dinner. Cause I got to do that. I’d get up the next morning. I have my meeting. Then I run to the airport, hop on the plane, get back on the wifi, maybe get a few hours of sleep. And then I’m expected to be online the next day. And even saying that the level of anxiety and tension that I can feel.

[00:34:10] Andy Caron: feel from that pace, I think perfectly exemplifies the fact that the pace at which we are expected to do life in general doesn’t jive with the way that our nerves, nervous systems are wired, the way that we as humans have evolved. to have a cadence and style of life, and then you add in the fact that you’ve got a computer in your back pocket all day, you go, you lay down, what do you do?

[00:34:36] Andy Caron: You go on, you go to look at one thing, and next thing you know, you’ve spent an hour and a half, and all you’ve done is added additional layers onto that snowball of anxiety and stress.

[00:34:48] Joe Peters: Exactly, and I think we have to find our own ways that make sense to us. I think we know. We know if you ask anyone.

[00:34:58] Joe Peters: Intellectually, we all know that this is a challenge, but what are we actually doing about it? That’s, I think the question that we need to challenge ourselves and as we move into this new year resolution phase, this might be a time to examine our use of different technologies and figure out a time to give ourselves a bit of a break.

[00:35:26] Joe Peters: What’s the mental health? break we can take from this. And, and I, I think maybe that’s a good segue into what we want to do in one of our first episodes of the new year is really start to talk about wellness and mobs and what that means. And, and it’s not only wellness at work. We can’t just pretend that, that there’s just this magic severance between work and home life.

[00:35:56] Joe Peters: And technology and how it kind of connects to us in all of these spaces, we really start to, we need to really take some time to think about ourselves and how we’re taking care of ourselves and each other.

[00:36:11] Andy Caron: So Joe, do you doom scroll?

[00:36:14] Joe Peters: Absolutely can, but I have tips to stop. Like I know, I know when I’m doing it.

[00:36:20] Joe Peters: So for example, my guilty pleasures, I’ve put only on my iPad and I’ve taken them off my phone. Okay. And that is my control function. I can’t just do it whenever I want. I actually have to go get that device, spend the time and do it. And I, and for me, that’s really helped me a lot. I still love to go on X and, and, and, cause I love all the learning that I can do there and amongst all the other stuff that’s, that’s on the platform.

[00:36:56] Joe Peters: But if I just have it on my phone all the time, it can be my default that I go to. Whenever I have a few minutes, and that’s the, that can be the unhealthy part.

[00:37:07] Andy Caron: My tactic, so I, I don’t separate church and state in devices per se, but I have been known to, to get into it once I’ve laid down and I, I’ll have to stop myself because I can, you know, spend an hour and go, geez, that, that was time I should have been sleeping or, you know, could have used more, more efficiently.

[00:37:27] Andy Caron: I like to listen to audio books as I’m going to sleep. But my tactic is I, as I’m falling asleep with my audio book, have started putting my phone in airplane mode and then I will play solitaire just to get my brain to shut down because I need something to shut it down and sadly that is my phone.

[00:37:51] Andy Caron: I wish it wasn’t a screen. They say that’s not optimal. to look at your screen right before you fall asleep, but the the solitaire sort of relaxes and shuts my brain down enough. But then if I do click over and sort of almost automatically go to Facebook, it’s not live, right? I can’t get into the scroll, the, the, the videos, the snippets, the reels, all the other stuff.

[00:38:14] Andy Caron: That will then have me going down rabbit holes and so having that actual physical disconnection from the internet while still being on my device is, is a way that I’ve found. to mitigate that for myself. So that’s been very useful. You’ve

[00:38:30] Joe Peters: kind of just allowed kind of like whatever is cached as your limit, which is, which is kind of, that’s a fun way of doing it.

[00:38:39] Joe Peters: I think this is, we’re going to, this is a hot take, but I, I, this week, but Yeah, there is. This is an important conversation. And I think thematically, I think there are things that we need to do better, not only as organizations, but to challenge ourselves as individuals assist ourselves because there is some really unhealthy behavior that is oddly become normalized.

[00:39:09] Joe Peters: And when you compare it to earlier eras, like I think of my, what my parents were always yelling me about watching TV, the idiot box, that that’s what they called it. Now, now, now, well, what does this, what does it make? What is this? What’s our phone? Right? I don’t know. But anyway, let’s move on. There’s a lot, there’s a lot for us to cover here.

[00:39:36] Joe Peters: And I think we can help each other out and start to strategize on having these moments of disconnection and And because it’s in our best interest, I really think it is. All right. Well, let’s move into our pairings this week. I thought we’d go to the Strokes one because the Strokes are one of my favorite bands in my top two or three.

[00:40:05] Joe Peters: So I have a real soft spot for them, but I thought with everything that was going on, Room on Fire was perfect album. And the tracks kind of feel like it could be used just the titles to tell the whole story around AI recently. Between love and hate, automatic stop, under control, the end has no end.

[00:40:33] Joe Peters: These are just tracks off the album that we could put the whole Altman saga into that sequence there. But in the end, I couldn’t help myself. The hook is too good in Reptilia. So that’s the track we’re going to share this week, but a great album. The colored vinyl is amazing on this one in terms of what Vinyl Me Please has done.

[00:40:57] Joe Peters: You can see that in our, in our show notes. As always, we play a little bit longer segment of the song at the end. End of launch code. So at the end of this episode, you want to hear Reptilia in a, in a longer format, you’re, you’re, you’ll have that opportunity there, but I couldn’t help myself make this connection and I had a lot of trouble picking the track, but I think this one is good for us this week.

[00:41:25] Joe Peters: So what do you have on the reading side, Andi?

[00:41:28] Andy Caron: So I like to alternate fiction and non fiction. So this is a a fiction section for me. The book I am bringing is the first in the Bobiverse series, which is what it’s affectionately come to be known as. But the first book is called We Are Legion, We Are Bob.

[00:41:45] Andy Caron: And… The We Are Bob is in parentheses, but We Are Legion is the first installment in a four book series by a sci fi legend. I mean, just amazing work coming from Dennis E. Taylor. I absolutely love this book, but it postulates this future. Of a von Neumann probe, which is a self replicating spaceship that can then be used for exploration.

[00:42:15] Andy Caron: So it has 3D printers on board and you can build more ships as you find deposits of various minerals and other items in space. Rather than having to build it all and launch it all from Earth, which is an interesting first piece. But what makes this really fun… Is this is a human consciousness that has been loaded into a computer and that has been launched with the spaceship as its navigator and as its primary crew member, I guess because of self self replication, this man, former man, Bob is also replicating himself.

[00:42:56] Andy Caron: And so it gets into these fascinating areas above and beyond. space exploration and sort of the challenges and realities of finding, you know, the materials needed to even make the spaceships with, if you could clone yourself. What work would you have that person do versus what would you pick for yourself?

[00:43:16] Andy Caron: How is that person individuated from you? Are they you? Are they a separate person? And then as they replicate out from that first replica, how, what’s the drift like? Would you even like a version of you? Are there different things that come to the fore or more subdued in individuals? And how do you Potentially work in a community of yourself in a whole slew of varieties, and it’s just such a fun, great exploration that also looks at human consciousness in a digital environment and what would be necessary to even maintain sanity in that type of a scenario.

[00:44:01] Andy Caron: So, fantastic series. The first book is really great and I highly, highly recommend, as I always do, the audible version. The narrator is just fantastic. He is Bob for me. So Canada recommend that book and that series enough.

[00:44:16] Joe Peters: It’s so interesting when we have fiction informing our reality today. Yeah. And science fiction or Theater or TV series are, are really helping us understand our future.

[00:44:37] Joe Peters: In terms of our technological advancements, I find it fascinating. Well, this is super interesting. I’ll have to add it to my Audible list. I have about 72 hours of a backlog of Audible books to get through still, but There are sales right now, Joe. I know. I have, I think I have like, I also have like 12 credits still left on Audible because I haven’t gotten through, but there’s so many podcasts, so many great things to listen to these days.

[00:45:03] Joe Peters: But this, this Baba versus. Really interesting and I’m gonna have to find some time on a long drive to listen to Bob, but all right Well, thanks for sharing that. So this is the end of this week’s episode. Thanks to everyone for listening Be sure to subscribe rate and review. You can find us on Spotify YouTube and Apple Stay connected with us on LinkedIn or by joining our newsletter Also called launch codes using the link in the description and thanks mom for watching.

[00:45:37] Joe Peters: Have a great week everyone

[Episode 11] Drama at OpenAI

This week, a shocking announcement takes the AI world by storm! On our 11th episode of Launch Codes, Joe is joined by Matt Tonkin, RP’s VP of Consulting & Partnerships, to discuss


Listen Below


Sam Altman fired from OpenAI, joins Microsoft

OpenAI CEO and co-founder Sam Altman has been fired, according to an announcement issued by the company last Friday. Shortly after the announcement, OpenAI’s co-founder and president Greg Brockman resigned. And just this morning, it was announced that Microsoft would be hiring both Altman and Brockman.

This comes as a major shock to everyone, and Joe iterates that he’s been an admirer of Altman as a leader and communicator in the AI space. The whole situation is strange, especially considering the vague reasoning for Altman’s departure in OpenAI’s announcement: “He [Altman] was not consistently candid in his communications with the board, hindering its ability to exercise its responsibilities.” Matt comments on this, stating this reason seems almost purposely veiled, and it’ll be interesting to see if we ever learn more details down the road (maybe in a movie!).

Joe and Matt delve into a deeper discussion surrounding the drama-filled dialogue that took place between Altman, OpenAI, and perhaps even Microsoft over the weekend. There is a lot of speculation surrounding what was said during those negotiations, but we know with certainty that it remains unresolved. For now, the new interim CEO for OpenAI is Emmett Shear, the former CEO of Twitch.

Joe is also surprised by the current shift towards “decelerating” the AI movement, and how Altman’s departure seems to contribute to this. Joe went on to say, “The moment your foot’s taken off the gas, someone’s going to be putting their foot on — whether that’s some other company in the US, Europe, China, who knows? No one else is going to be taking their foot off the gas”. It’s an important point that OpenAI is certainly considering. We’re all curious to see how this will play out.


Google and Yahoo make big changes to prevent spam

We’ve seen a lot of headlines about Google and Yahoo email deliverability changes coming in Q1 of 2024, but a recent announcement by Outreach has brought this topic back to the forefront.

It will affect organizations sending more than 5,000 messages per day to the Google or Yahoo network, regardless of platform. Spam complaint rates of 0.3% or higher will be blocked from sending messages.

Joe comments that this could be a big problem for enterprise companies that are reliant on a high-volume outbound messaging model. The COO at ColdIQ said on LinkedIn, “It’s symptomatic of a larger trend — the old predictable revenue playbook is dying. Inboxes are overwhelmed and buyers aren’t responding to cold outreach like before. SDR teams have grown exponentially yet yield diminishing returns.”

This all comes as no surprise to Matt, who says it’s a natural progression of the last five or six years of legislating this area through things like GDPR. Although the 0.3% number looks scary, Matt feels that you probably don’t have too much to worry about if you’re following best practices. This puts even more emphasis on good targeting; marketers need to make sure their content is highly valuable to the people receiving it.


The platform pivot: How to learn a new automation tool

This week’s question from the Slack Channel (used with permission from the founder, Mike Rizzo) is: “What’s the best way to break into Marketo or SFMC when you only have 1 year of experience in each but more than 7 years of experience in Eloqua?”

This is a tough one because we often see roles and positions broken down by the tool being used. But the reality is, which Matt and Joe agree on, the knowledge you gain in one tool isn’t lost on another. Switching tools will require an understanding of new processes and new terminology, but the core strategic mindset on how to use an automation tool is transferable.

To expedite that initial learning curve, expose yourself to people who have used that new platform you’re learning, look at the documentation, and lean into as much exposure as possible. It depends on how much time you have, but someone with a good MOPs mindset can probably move between platforms within a matter of months — especially with a community as helpful and supportive as the MOPs one.


Hot Takes

  • Marketing Ops Function Continues to Grow in 2024
    • The State of Martech and Marketing Operations was released for 2024. 63% of CMOs expect to increase the size of their MOPs function in the next 12 months.
  • The Growing AI Wearables Market
    • Rewind Pendant: a wearable that captures what you see, say and hear in the real world, then summarizes it and securely stores it for future use.
    • Humane AI Pin: a wearable device developed by Humane, a tech startup led by former Apple employees Imran Chaudhri and Bethany Bongiorno. Priced at $700, it’s designed for artificial intelligence applications and attaches to clothing via a magnetic system with a detachable battery.
  • YouTube will tell users when content was created with AI
    • YouTube will begin to require creators to label AI-generated content on its platform.


Read The Transcript

Disclaimer: This transcript was created by AI using Descript and has not been edited.

[00:00:00] Joe Peters: Welcome to episode 11. I’m your host, Joe Peters. On today’s episode, massive drama and AI. Second, Google tightens its belt on spam complaints. From our community, the platform Pivot, how to learn a new automation tool. And then in our hot takes, CMOs say the more the merrier for mops teams next year.

[00:00:25] Joe Peters: The future of fashion, AI wearables that tech all the boxes. And finally, YouTube stamps out AI ambiguity with new labeling. Today I’m joined by Matt Tonkin. Matt, what are you happy or excited to discuss this week?

[00:00:41] Matt Tonkin: So we’re recording this on a Monday morning and as someone who checked out a little bit on the weekend, had a busy weekend what, what happened to like open AI is well, yeah, I want to know what’s going on.

[00:00:54] Joe Peters: So I’ve been following this. Very, very closely over the weekend. Pretty shocking. So right now it’s what time of day is it? It’s 20 after nine Eastern on Monday morning. So I feel like this is fast moving drama. Who knows what could happen today, but as this is what we know, as of now, Friday afternoon, the board of open AI fired Sam Altman and shortly after Greg Brockman, the president quit.

[00:01:31] Joe Peters: And then there was kind of a sign of a whole bunch of departures going to happen to follow them in whatever they decide to do. So, obviously a real shocker. Sam Altman presented to President Z and Biden just the night before was the keynote speaker at the APEC CEOs conference in California. I think it was in San Francisco and then the next day he’s fired.

[00:02:07] Joe Peters: So really some weirdness. And, and the, the, the reason they said for him being let go was something around clarity of communications, like vaguely in that. So there’s a lot to unpack there. So that’s drama point one, or step one. Yeah.

[00:02:33] Matt Tonkin: And it feels like how much has happened. Yeah, when I read the reason.

[00:02:40] Matt Tonkin: It seems purposely veiled in, in some ways. Right. So it’ll be interesting to hear sort of like the back and forth, but it seems like it came as a huge shock to, to anyone involved. So I find that surprising.

[00:02:58] Joe Peters: Yeah. So going into it, it’s pretty,

[00:03:06] Joe Peters: it’s hard to fully appreciate. I’m a big fan of, of I think he is an incredible communicator and a great leader in the space of AI. So I really wondered what, what could really happen that would for, for a board to be so upset that they would let him go like that he is, if you’d compare him to the communication style of.

[00:03:35] Joe Peters: Elon or Zuckerberg, like they’re not even in the same category. He’s so thoughtful and just, just a great communicator. Very rare from that perspective, uh, a lot of charisma and, you know, a lot of people are following him. And so when, when you kind of peel back the layers of the onion, what was really surprising to me was the very unusual board structure that they have, like very unusual, there’s only.

[00:04:08] Joe Peters: Four board members outside of Sam Altman and Greg Brockman. One of them’s at OpenAI. I always butcher his last name, but it’s the Ilya Sutskevich, uh, is the, is the technology person connected or the, you know, the hardcore developer part of the team. And then the other board members are. Pretty, I’m going to say basic and what I mean by that is they’re not really outstanding people, the type of people that you would expect.

[00:04:51] Joe Peters: Well, one, Microsoft doesn’t have a seat on the board, which is shocking for a 10 billion investment. And then you have like a former CTO of Facebook, but he left in 2008. Matt, what was Facebook like in 2008? It was just becoming a commercial product at the time. And then the others are, are, I’m going to say people that you wouldn’t really expect to have so much power.

[00:05:22] Joe Peters: Right. And if,

[00:05:24] Matt Tonkin: so if it’s a six member board, it’s obviously a unanimous decision. Or four to two.

[00:05:31] Joe Peters: Yeah.

[00:05:32] Matt Tonkin: Yeah. So, yeah, who, who really made the decision, I guess, then the way you’re describing it. And you mentioned
like Microsoft not having a… And that was the first thing when I did see the news and stuff, a lot of the comments were along, like, how does this affect the relationship with Mike?

[00:05:51] Matt Tonkin: And then you give me a little note on what actually has happened in what the last 10 hours, that’s. Almond’s been

[00:06:01] Joe Peters: hired by Microsoft. Yeah. Well, while you’re kind of skipping. Okay.

[00:06:06] Matt Tonkin: I’m a fresh, fresh baby to everything that’s coming in on this, like what?

[00:06:18] Joe Peters: So the, the, the, the dialogue going back was what was, could be the reason.

[00:06:23] Joe Peters: And so a lot of the commentary was that safety was at the core and. There was a difference in perspective on safety. And what that actually meant for the future. So Altman had alluded on Thursday that they’d made another massive breakthrough. And so that was where people thought the tension was on
the safety side.

[00:06:53] Joe Peters: It turns out if you believe what’s happened, that that wasn’t the case. So, so listen, it’s, it’s Saturday. The drama continues. It looks like the board is going to resign. And Altman’s going to go back. Okay. That was Saturday. Sunday turns out that wasn’t the case. And obviously Microsoft is playing heavy on in the negotiations here.

[00:07:27] Joe Peters: They lost 80 billion in market cap on Friday. So they’re pretty worried about what’s happening. 100%. And so it seemed like, well, last night when I was heading to bed. It remained unresolved. And there was a picture of Sam Altman holding a guest badge at OpenAI headquarters, okay, which, and then you have these trigger points where all of these key members of the OpenAI team are leaving.

[00:08:02] Joe Peters: They had set a time and people were leaving. So wake, waking up this morning, find out Microsoft has hired. Altman and Brockman and Microsoft Ignite is going to be this new AI space and they’re going to lead it and have a ton of money to take AI forward and I really wasn’t familiar with him before this morning.

[00:08:37] Joe Peters: Obviously, I know the tech but the New CEO of OpenAI has been announced, and that is Emmett Shear. And he is best known as the CEO of Twitch. Which, I don’t know, doesn’t seem to be like an obvious one for me, but maybe Twitch had some really moves happening in AI, but he has been out of the game. And, and had, had left Twitch, I’m going to say for six months, nine months or something and and just took over as CEO of OpenAI and he dispelled the rumor that the reason for the departure and the dismissal was not safety oriented.

[00:09:33] Joe Peters: And that he is committed to commercializing their innovations. So Matt, it’s crazy. It’s like, it’s, this is the second inning of the AI development cycle. And these moves are just jaw dropping. And this,

[00:09:58] Matt Tonkin: yeah, it’s like a, sort of a watershed moment. And this, well, cause conversation around like safety and, you know, for commercialization of this, like.

[00:10:08] Matt Tonkin: Those are all those, like, very hot topic words for the general public versus, you know, the tech community that’s more involved in AI right, in that balance. So, that’s what I, I find interesting, like, how does this hurt perceptions publicly about open AI? Is there, you know, you start getting all the worries about, like, well, what was happening that, that made this so necessary and that sort of piece.

[00:10:34] Joe Peters: Yeah. Very, very true. And obviously there’s going to be a story. There’s a book and or a movie about this coming, like, this is, this is pretty fascinating. And the

[00:10:49] Matt Tonkin: script will probably be written by ChatGPT.

[00:10:55] Joe Peters: You know, but I feel, I feel like there’s a big shift happening here now. And. The one thing that really surprises me is there’s this deceleration movement. They’re called decels now, which I think is pretty funny. This deceleration movement on trying to slow things down. But I’m going to tell you, there are, no one else is slowing down.

[00:11:24] Joe Peters: And, and maybe you would like it, but the moment your foot’s taken off the gas, Someone’s going to be putting their foot on and whether that’s some other company in, in, in the U S the EU, Europe, China, who knows? No one else is going to be taking their foot off the gas. So I don’t think the genie’s out of the bottle and we’ve got to figure things out and I, I really am curious where this goes, but anyway, that’s enough of the drama today, let’s, let’s shift gears, but definitely.

[00:12:05] Joe Peters: More to come here and more details that we’re going to find out. And I really would like to know what this breakthrough was that they had on Thursday. And maybe that’ll shed some light on why.

[00:12:19] Matt Tonkin: Is it something, is it something that even is elaborated on in the next week, do you think? I don’t know.

[00:12:26] Matt Tonkin: Right? Like, or is it just suddenly like disappear and that wasn’t mentioned and we don’t know exactly that. What that mention was,

[00:12:34] Joe Peters: we’re going to have to wait for the movie. I think Matt, anyway. All right, well, let’s shift gears. Not a lot of mops in that first segment, but we’ll bring it right back to the ranch here as we get into our next topic, which is Google and Yahoo making pretty big changes.

[00:12:58] Joe Peters: To prevent spam. So we’ve seen a lot of headlines on deliverability changing changes coming in Q1, and we really focused on this you know, in a couple of podcasts ago, but really it’s these new rules that are going to affect organizations sending more than 5, 000 messages. per day to google yahoo networks regardless of the platform and this could include password resets newsletter product announcement it doesn’t matter so organizations with spam complaint rates of 0.

[00:13:37] Joe Peters: 3 let me repeat that 0. 3 or higher will be blocked from sending messages to Google Yahoo. And this, this could be a really, really big problem for some enterprise companies reliant on kind of that high volume outbound messaging model. So there is a quote from cold IQ, the COO from there, and the point was, quote, It’s symptomatic of a larger trend.

[00:14:09] Joe Peters: The old predictable revenue playbook is dying. Inboxes are overwhelmed and buyers aren’t responding to cold outreach like before. SDR teams have grown exponentially, yet yield diminishing returns. End quote. So what do you think about this, Matt? There’s, there’s a lot to unpack here, but it’s not a surprise.

[00:14:32] Joe Peters: Not a surprise.

[00:14:33] Matt Tonkin: It’s a natural progression that we’ve seen over the last five, six years of, you know, legislating this type of thing with GDPR and, You know, even in the States, which in the United States, I know Canadians tend to say the States a lot I’ve been called out on that a bit, but even in the United States, you’re starting to see more of that legislation put in place and a place that’s historically been kind of slow to the compliance game.

[00:15:00] Matt Tonkin: You’re starting to see that being put in place at a legislative level, which means, you know, it was just a matter of time before, you know, Google started. All right. Let’s, let’s use our weight and throw it around a bit. I’d say if you’re following good practices, you probably don’t have too much to worry about.

[00:15:19] Matt Tonkin: I know I work with a lot of companies that they probably don’t have to worry too much about this. That 0. 3 percent though is a scary looking number. Yeah. But it comes down to a matter of like. Yeah, you can’t just buy lists and blast out lists anymore one. It’s a it’s a bad tactic. It doesn’t work very well.

[00:15:38] Matt Tonkin: So This is almost Google saving you from yourself

[00:15:44] Joe Peters: Yeah, and so I think what are the solutions one quality is going to matter probably personalization And maybe even how that could be in that AI assisted personalization. We’ve had some pretty fun experiments with that. What else do you think is on the, on the table here?

[00:16:11] Joe Peters: Hyper

[00:16:11] Matt Tonkin: targeting that someone is interested or has reason to be interested. And what I’m sending is valuable. And that’s, I mean, that’s been key for getting good open rates, getting good click rates is send something valuable. Don’t just be like, Hey. By my product people get flooded, right? And so, there’s
gonna be that change in tactic.

[00:16:33] Matt Tonkin: How do you actually reach out to people in that sort of approach? And anytime something like this happens, there’ll be a few articles that are big and like, Oh, okay, do it this way. And everyone’s going to do that. So it’s going to be switched to LinkedIn, LinkedIn, direct messages. And suddenly everyone’s going to be flooded with LinkedIn direct messages.

[00:16:52] Matt Tonkin: And it becomes, I remember years and years ago, HubSpot put out an article that for some reason, I think it was 10 PM or 10 AM Eastern on Tuesdays and Thursdays get the best engagement rates for emails. And you know what happened? Everyone sent emails at 10 a. m. Eastern, and no one opened any emails. So it’s sort of that, that cadence and that flow.

[00:17:16] Matt Tonkin: And I see that happening. I see a bunch of, Okay, we can’t email as much, do this, and that getting overwhelmed. And everyone sort of will find their, find their area that works for them.

[00:17:29] Joe Peters: Yeah, I, I, I don’t know how many, we’re sort of overwhelmed with a lot of spam now. And I’m going to say my DMs on LinkedIn, 90 percent of the time are someone trying to sell something now, maybe even higher.

[00:17:48] Matt Tonkin: And it, the worst is when it seems like a genuine connection or, or need, and then you connect and then immediately they’re selling something to you. And that’s sort of that bait and switch that that’s what it was with email originally. And this, that’s going to cause linkedin to start cracking down as well.

[00:18:10] Matt Tonkin: Yeah,

[00:18:11] Joe Peters: it’s, it’s moving from one thing to the other. It’s the whack a mole of channels, right? So anyway, let’s move into our community question. And thanks to the marketingops. com community for. Giving us a great topic this week. So let me read the question for you, Matt. What’s the best way to break into Marketo or SFMC when you only have one year experience in each, but more than seven years experience in Eloqua.

[00:18:45] Matt Tonkin: Oh, so that’s always, that’s always a tough one, right? Because so many times like roles and new, new positions get broken down by what tool you’re using. And it’s unfortunate because in a lot of ways, you know, there’s the idea of like transferable skills. And that knowledge on how to structure a RevOps team, how to structure, how processes are happening and how data’s met and read, all of that is transferable between these platforms.

[00:19:13] Matt Tonkin: In the end, the best way to get experience is to have experience, which is, which sucks because the only way to get experience is to have an opportunity to be in with the tool.

[00:19:23] Joe Peters: If this is, but the knowledge isn’t lost, right? The knowledge isn’t lost. No, it’s part of it is just understanding. The kind of switch in language and process within the systems and

[00:19:37] Matt Tonkin: but yeah, that’s 100%.

[00:19:39] Matt Tonkin: I know Marketo uses the term programs for what most in marketing would term a campaign. And then Marketo campaigns are more like a workflow for most. And, and that can be that hardest part, that terminology, that just knowing how to do certain things. But again, it’s just, you get experience with that and those transferable skills, that strategic mindset doesn’t get lost.

[00:20:04] Matt Tonkin: So a lot of it’s exposure, look into the documentation, talk with people who’ve used the platform that can kind of do that translation, right? I think that’s sort of the, the perfect part. How long does that take? Depends how much time you can invest. But I think someone with a good mobs mindset can probably move between platforms in a matter of a few months.

[00:20:25] Matt Tonkin: Not saying they’re going to be an expert in it, but they can

[00:20:29] Joe Peters: make that transition. Yeah, make their way around in the platform and get things done. Yeah, and… I’d say also
rely on the community when you’re, when you’re blocked on something. So if you, you know, can’t figure out or decode what doing X is in, in platform Z, then ask the community.

[00:20:53] Joe Peters: We, we have a great mops community out there and people are very, very supportive. Okay, let’s take a minute to thank our sponsors at Knack for sponsoring today’s episode. Knack is the no code platform that allows you to build campaigns in minutes. NAC’s dark mode allows you to test and preview your emails to see exactly how they’ll look in dark mode.

[00:21:20] Joe Peters: Visit NAC. com to learn more. That’s K N A K dot com. All right, so let’s move into our hot takes, Matt. And our first one is from the State of Martech and Marketing Operations, released for 2024. And 63 percent of CMOs expect to see an increase in the size of their MOPS function in the next 12 months. So this research was done in August of this year, and the reasons why they feel this is happening is that Martek continues to play a role, a key role in marketing strategy, and 30 percent of an organization’s marketing budget now is spent on Martek, according to this report.

[00:22:11] Joe Peters: So what are your first thoughts on this, Matt?

[00:22:14] Matt Tonkin: Honestly, this makes sense to me. If you think about sort of a bit more turbulent last 12 months that we’ve had. And the thing with marketing operations is that you only tend to notice it when things are going bad, right? It’s one of those things that it’s under the hood a lot of the time.

[00:22:32] Matt Tonkin: And that’s a challenge for marketing operations. Marketing operations professionals who need to find a way to surface what they’re doing to show their value. But I think a lot of the times. It’s that it’s only noticed when something’s going wrong. So when times come for cuts and stuff, it looks like, Oh, what’s this person doing?

[00:22:52] Matt Tonkin: And you see a lot of cuts. And we saw that happen over the last 12 months or so. And then suddenly it does, it starts cascading and you don’t have people that have the knowledge that have, you know. The, the understanding of how your data is set up, how everything’s processing and you start to not be able to know what you need to know.

[00:23:12] Matt Tonkin: You know, the old phrase for advertising budgets. I know half my budget’s wasted. I just don’t know which half. Well, if you have a good team, you know what you, that’s, that’s the whole underlying purpose is knowing how to do these things, knowing what works and actioning on them. And that’s. drives marketing strategy.

[00:23:37] Joe Peters: Well, I, I think you’ve made some good points there and it is encouraging for a space it, I, I do, I do think that. People are understanding the ROI component of MOPS is much easier to understand than other parts of the, of the function. So let’s move on to our next area. A little jump back to AI again. And there’s a couple of new AI wearables that have been released.

[00:24:07] Joe Peters: There’s first is this rewind pendant. And second is this humane AI pen. And let’s start with the humane one. And then we can get. Into the rewind one and the humane AI pin. I really would just encourage you to kind of have a look at it. They have a weird URL. It’s like H U dot M A N E dot AI or something
like that.

[00:24:36] Joe Peters: Or no, it’s H

[00:24:38] Matt Tonkin: H U dot M A dot N E. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:43] Joe Peters: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It’s very, very funny. But cause it’s a little bit hard to find, but I’d encourage everyone to just go watch the video. It’s about 10 minutes. It’s pretty fascinating. And if it isn’t fully, let’s say perfect today. The profile is a little bit big, like the way you’re going to wear it is kind of a bit odd and big, but if you kind of think about it, I do feel like it’s given us a glimpse of the future.

[00:25:19] Joe Peters: What were your first takes at it? The interesting

[00:25:22] Matt Tonkin: thing for me and like with that video is that it wasn’t, I don’t know, it didn’t have like this huge flash, like appeal. Trying to sell you on this thing, it, it was just, here’s this device, here’s how it works, and very, I felt, matter of fact, here’s how things work, and it felt like, you know, taking all of the cool or slightly scary pieces of the other wearables we’ve seen, and sort of like, putting it all together, it really felt like, sort of a, all in one device for AI, um, so, so that was what stood out to me first, it was very much a, Let’s describe how and why and not not get too flashy

[00:26:01] Joe Peters: with it.

[00:26:02] Joe Peters: Yeah So just just so if you can conceptually think about it It would be like if you took an iPhone It’d be like the size maybe like the top third of your phone Maybe a little bit thicker and then has a magnet or clip structure. There’s a kind of different backs to it. So it can either be, you put it on one side of a shirt in the, in the, in the battery or the back of it, the clip is behind, or so it’s kind of like in between your shirt or on either side of your shirt, or you can clip it onto a jacket or clip it onto a purse or different things like that.

[00:26:47] Joe Peters: So that form factor is a bit. A bit awkward. It looked a bit awkward on the people, but then you’re able to engage with it. At different points, kind of eliminates some of the surveillance fears by having a glowing light so it doesn’t, you know, you’re not secretly recording people, although I bet you if you put a piece of black electrical tape over it, that would cover it up pretty quick.

[00:27:17] Joe Peters: But anyway. It also has a little projector, so it will project onto your hand and you can control it using your finger and thumb to advance things. I don’t know. It looked really interesting and I think it would be fascinating to try it, but I think it would be also really weird to wear it around. And

[00:27:44] Matt Tonkin: it looks cool, right?

[00:27:45] Matt Tonkin: You see it on your hand. Functionally, and like, is, is that something people want to do? Is that, you know, is that better than a phone? Or your watch. Or your watch. Is that, like, how, how well does it work, one? Is it, if it’s not clean functionality, like, if it… It can be as cool looking as you want, but if the actual interface doesn’t work, and I mean, we just saw what the video was.

[00:28:14] Matt Tonkin: I haven’t had a chance to play around with this, so it might work perfectly, but I have my doubts that it does. So that’s one thing too, right. Is, is it better enough that it’s going to replace something like a phone? Yeah. And the one thing with this too, you know, we’ve got all these different ones coming at the rewind pendant.

[00:28:32] Matt Tonkin: You know, we’ve seen all these wearables. When does it kind of consolidate and become like a phone where, you know, A huge chunk has an iPhone and then, you know, the smaller divisions, there’s maybe like really 10 at most key models that people have. So when does it become like that where everything gets consolidated or does it?

[00:28:52] Matt Tonkin: Does everyone just have a different wearable?

[00:28:56] Joe Peters: I do, I do find it pretty interesting. I think they’re on to something. It’s, it’s worth having a look. It’s probably V1 is not going to be if they get enough funding and sell enough that. They can get to V2. It’s probably a compelling. More compelling when it’s a smaller form factor, but right now, and some of the criticism that I’ve heard has been the kind of surveillance recording people, and I, I think they’ve tried to address that.

[00:29:32] Joe Peters: And then the other thing is I have a phone and a watch. Why do I need this too? And that, and that I think is probably a legit question and maybe it eliminates. One of those things, I don’t know to your

[00:29:49] Matt Tonkin: point on the whole, like recording and they address that very early in the video. They pretty much outright say, you know, it’s not going to just be recording you.

[00:29:58] Matt Tonkin: It, you have to interact with it, which is kind of a very different approach from that rewind pendant where the whole point is it’s recording.

[00:30:06] Joe Peters: Yeah. So that rewind pendant, for those of you that aren’t familiar with that is a necklace with a little, it looks kind of like. A little cylinder, maybe an inch, uh, long and a half an inch thick.

[00:30:21] Joe Peters: And it’s at the end of this pendant and it’s kind of just recording all day. And then it sort of processes it and condenses it and gives you details on what it’s heard all day long. Now they’ve really, like if you check out their website now, it’s really walked back because they got a lot of criticism on that and they’re all their use cases are like, what would it be like for a CEO to condense all your conversations that you’ve had all day?

[00:30:50] Joe Peters: Or what about someone with ADHD to get a summary of what there is? So they’re really trying to, it’s very actually hard to see a picture of the pendant. On the website now,

[00:31:01] Matt Tonkin: so I haven’t looked at it in a while. I’ll have to

[00:31:03] Joe Peters: yeah. So obviously they’ve taken their criticism on the surveillance side of things to hurt.

[00:31:09] Joe Peters: But anyway, this was supposed to be a hot take and ended up being longer than some of our other segments. So. Maybe we should move on and this last one, I think, and this is a theme that we’ve talked about a little bit is YouTube now going to be telling users when content was created with AI and having the ability to have those labels.

[00:31:33] Joe Peters: So that people have awareness on this. I think when we get into things like elections, conflicts, public health crises, any kind of public official or public figure, this, this sort of AI label is going to be important. And we’re going to have to have more and more of these. Yeah. It’s,

[00:31:57] Matt Tonkin: And to me, it’s a natural progression of.

[00:31:59] Matt Tonkin: You know, misinformation flags and fact check, fact checking flags where, you know, if it can tell that there’s something off about it, surfacing that not necessarily removing it, but making sure people are as informed as possible.

[00:32:16] Joe Peters: Yeah, it’s, it’s a pretty.

[00:32:18] Matt Tonkin: Hey,

[00:32:23] Joe Peters: this is going to be something. And I know, I know we’re going to have a several iterations before this is nailed.

[00:32:29] Joe Peters: It is next year’s us election is going to be fascinating on what’s going to happen in this space.

[00:32:40] Matt Tonkin: We’ll know a lot more. I mean, we’ll see how well YouTube can actually

[00:32:44] Joe Peters: action on this. Yeah. And I think all the platforms are thinking about this now. I know Metta came out with something last week too, I think in the, in the similar um, area of trust, but okay, let’s move on to our pairing segment.

[00:33:01] Joe Peters: And this week I’m in the office today, so I don’t have access to my turntable or the vinyl. But we, that’s not going to stop us from sharing, um, our pairing segment today. So album that I would like to share with you today is a Grateful Dead album. It’s, it’s, it was kind of their last, well, not, not the last, but it was the first time they kind of had broader commercial success.

[00:33:36] Joe Peters: The album is called In the Dark and the song is called Touch of Gray. And It’s not the for the deadhead fans out there. They’ll be like, Oh, Joe, why are you sharing that song? This isn’t the they’re, you know, the best part of their catalog, but I thought it was fitting with everything that’s going on in AI and the The fact that we’re a bit in the dark and everything’s got a little cloudier here in terms of where things are going.

[00:34:05] Joe Peters: So I thought touch of gray was a very fitting track for us to have as our music pairing this week. And the vinyl is super cool. It’s kind of this. Purpley vinyl, you’ll, you’ll see it in the, in our show notes and show a cover, but it this track in the dark and touch of gray, I thought were perfect for today.

[00:34:31] Matt Tonkin: Well, so for me I’ve got my beer and

[00:34:37] Matt Tonkin: the beer I’ve gone with today is from Quebec and it’s Unibrew, Unibrew, depending on the pronunciation, and This one I felt served very well for what we’ve done. So for anyone who doesn’t have an elementary level of French like myself, Le Fin du Monde is the end of the world. And email spam rates, open AI in shambles.

[00:35:04] Matt Tonkin: It really can be like the end of the world, but just remember… It’s not the end of the world. So, yeah, well,

[00:35:11] Joe Peters: those ones are pretty strong. Yeah. So you have too many of

[00:35:15] Matt Tonkin: those that can be, yeah, yeah,

[00:35:18] Joe Peters: it can be those, those are a flashback to my youth heading over across the border to go back. And those, those are, those pack fandomo.

[00:35:31] Joe Peters: But all right, Matt, that’s awesome. And we’re on the same wavelength. As with our choices this week, setting them up thematically to what’s happening in our world. But all right. Well, thanks, Matt. And thanks to everyone for listening. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review. You can find us on Spotify, YouTube and Apple.

[00:35:54] Joe Peters: Stay connected with us on LinkedIn or by joining our newsletter, also called Launch Codes using the link in the description. And as always, thanks mom for watching. Have a great week, everyone.

[Episode 10] The State of Marketing Ops 2023

Launch Codes hit double digits this week — Our 10th episode is live. This week Lauren McCormack, our VP of Consulting, joins Joe to discuss a whole lot of events.


Listen Below


Episode Summary


State of Marketing Ops Report

This month released the 2023 State of the MO Pro Report. The report contains 553 responses collected between May and August 2023.

Three key findings:

  • Widespread adoption of MOPs teams
    • 88% of orgs over $10 million in annual revenue have dedicated MOPs person/team.
    • 64% of orgs under $10 million in annual revenue have dedicated MOPs person/team.
  • Smaller teams are trending
    • 31% of participants are a solo team, up from 25% last year
  • Data is now the primary responsibility
    • Analyzing, unifying and reporting data number one responsibility
    • Almost 70% of participants ranked data as number one this year compared to fourth place last year
    • Top responsibility in 2022 was developing and implementing software/system integrations. Ranks 4th in this year’s report.

“Millions of dollars of rounds were being put into B2B SaaS only to have everything evaporate so abruptly, and now, frugality has been the mantra for 2023.” Lauren said. “It’s no surprise that teams have gotten smaller and to see the people that remain realizing that unlocking data or having governance over data is the future to their success.”


HubSpot acquires Clearbit to enhance its AI platform

Last week HubSpot announced it was acquiring the B2B data provider Clearbit to enhance its platform with third-party company data.

Gathering company data has gotten easier over the years but challenges remain around analyzing and using data. This acquisition means companies can enrich their internal customer data with real-time external context

Clearbit rebuilt its data pipeline earlier this year with LLMs at the core – reinventing how it processes, categorizes and enriches datasets.

“Thanks to this technology, Clearbit was now able to identify and enrich any company or contact data from any country in any language” CEO Matt Sornson wrote in a blog post about this change.

“The very first time I was exposed to Clearbit, I remember almost falling out of my chair,” said Joe. “The idea of this data enrichment was there and that they had invested so much in this combing the earth for contact information and being able to pop that into your CRM was magical.”

Needless to say, we’re excited to see what comes next from Clearbit with this acquisition.


Advice on developing marketing ops plans

Our question this week comes from the Slack Channel (used with permission from the founder, Mike Rizzo).

Looking for advice on developing marketing ops plans. I’ve been building out process and refining for efficiency with no real guiding light. Any recommendations?

“Revenue is your north star,” said Lauren. “The budget to build the cool stuff comes from the strategy, comes from tying to your revenue North Stars, comes from being able to articulate what the return on your time is to the bottom line.”

If you’re lacking direction, look at your company’s strategic plan for the year. See where can you support and lift the heavy rocks. Where can you build against numbers that will build job security for your boss’s boss?


Hot Takes

  • Experimenting with personalized GPTs
    • The team at RP is experimenting with training individual GPTs – look out for RP-GPT in the near future
    • Joe referenced a Sam Altman quote “We have to get the world familiar with AI, so we’ll release it incrementally and not wait for it to be perfect.”
  • AI will find you a job says LinkedIn
    • LinkedIn announced it’s experimenting with a new generative AI feature for job hunters.
    • Testing features to generate brief cover letter-like messages that candidates can send to hiring messengers on the platform. Is this the future of job applications?



With Joe back in his home office after a week on the road for MOPs-Apalooza, read the episode recap here, he was able to showcase this week’s record, and it’s gorgeous! The record is ‘Cool It Down’ from the Yeah, Yeah, Yeahs and the lead singer holds a special place in Joe’s heart (see why here). Lauren paired it with Starry Eyes by Dark Matter Coffee. It’s based out of Chicago, a very dark roast and has AMAZING packaging (check it out here).


Read The Transcript

Disclaimer: This transcript was created by AI using Descript and has not been edited.

[00:00:00] Joe Peters: Welcome to Launch Codes, the podcast about marketing operations, artificial intelligence, and more. Each week, you’ll hear from experts as they share insights, stories, and strategies. Welcome to Episode 10. I’m your host, Joe Peters. On today’s episode, a year in review, the 2023 State of MoPros report. Second, we have HubSpot is a clear bit closer to data dominance.

[00:00:30] Joe Peters: Then we’ll go to our community for a question on plotting efficiency when mapping out MOPS plans. And then we have a couple of hot takes on OpenAI turbocharging ChatGPT. And can AI find you a job, says, well, LinkedIn says so. So today I’m joined by Lauren McCormick. What are you excited about this week, Lauren?

[00:00:53] Joe Peters: Hey

[00:00:53] Lauren McCormack: everybody. I’m just excited for another conversation with you, Joe. So much to catch up on.

[00:00:59] Joe Peters: Oh yeah. It’s been a busy, busy week. That’s for sure. So funny enough if I wanted a Mopsapalooza flashback, I’m going to get one because our first topic today is, marketingops. com’s latest release on the 2023 state of the Mopro report.

[00:01:17] Joe Peters: And it’s a very interesting study. The data was collected over May, from May to August, so kind of a longer open period for respondents. But there are a couple of findings that are worth noting. First is in the area of widespread adoption of MOPS teams. So, 88 percent of orgs, over 10 million in ARR, or annual revenue, sorry, have a dedicated MOPS person team, compared to 64 percent of orgs under 10 million have a dedicated MOPS person team.

[00:01:55] Joe Peters: So, interesting on that first data point. And then, a couple of other ones. Smaller teams are trending. So we’re seeing 31 percent of participants are a solo team, which Lauren and I were, we’re quite familiar with that. That’s up from 25 percent last year. There could be a variety of things here that could be causing it.

[00:02:18] Joe Peters: But the third point is on the data, the primary responsibility. So. We’re seeing almost 70 percent of participants ranking data as the number one this year in terms of a responsibility that they’re taking hold on and, and that that’s a, that’s a big change and also really important change as we see our path towards AI adoption.

[00:02:43] Joe Peters: So. Lauren, out of these three, are there any surprises to you or anything that sort of comes to mind?

[00:02:52] Lauren McCormack: I think it’s a natural function of the change in the landscape that we’ve seen from venture capital. And the notion two years ago around expanding headcount for the sake of expanding headcount to show growth in a company to, to even just talk about LTV of customers, right?

[00:03:15] Lauren McCormack: And the investment at which, you know, millions of dollars of rounds were being put into B2B SaaS only to have everything evaporate so abruptly. And now, I think frugality has been the mantra for 2023, and it’s no surprise that teams have gotten smaller and definitely, I think, delightful, to your point, to see the people that remain realizing that unlocking data or having governance over data is the future to their success, it’s not, you know as we approach a GA4 kind of reduced cookie environment with increased standards around inbox, you know, deliverability restrictions, data’s the only way we’re going to unlock personalized relevant messaging.

[00:04:05] Lauren McCormack: That’s a welcome guest across platforms at scale. And I think marketers are starting to realize that now more than ever, that that’s where the true value lies is first party data.

[00:04:15] Joe Peters: Yeah, if we think of the opportunities with AI and data and, you know, it can also work against us a bit in terms of AI recognizing what isn’t really personalized messaging or direct messaging and anything that’s there from a spam perspective or might be conveyed as spam.

[00:04:37] Joe Peters: That, that’s, that’s going to be a challenge above and beyond all of these platform challenges we have to deal with as well.

[00:04:44] Lauren McCormack: Yeah, I think even just unlocking the first party data that you have in the now, not necessarily waiting for AI innovation, but taking your first party data around your MQLs, your SALs, your closed one business for the last year and getting it in platform around paid search and social and looking for more of the same.

[00:05:06] Lauren McCormack: I mean, that’s, that’s an opportunity at our doorstep now. And I, I do think that You know, years ago, it was hard for me to evangelize, sometimes it still is, with a couple of our clients, I, I still am having conversations around the intersection between first party data, paid search and social being kind of the, the quickest way to cash, to revenue, to ROAS, right, and, and the, but the underpinning foundation, the infrastructure and the architecture to make that happen is mobs, and people have seen them As disparate categories and functions for so long, but that intersection is so incredibly powerful and that’s where, that’s where I’ve spent a lot of my time professionally is just
trying to evangelize around that intersection of, of data and paid and ops and it’s, it’s a really powerful kind of trifecta if you can, if you can get ownership and you can optimize around all three points, it’s a, It’s a, it’s a definite path for growth for the org

[00:06:07] Joe Peters: and for you.

[00:06:08] Joe Peters: One hundred percent. And for careers. Yeah. And I think that’s the important, important point. One of the topics that came up, I’m going to say several times at Mopsapalooza was this idea of, of mops being able to take on this function of data ops as well. And I think that’s an important thing for people to see.

[00:06:30] Joe Peters: Why not? Recognize that this is a real opportunity for you in MOPS to, to have, I’m going to say, which are one of our most important battlefields over the next couple of years, if not far into the future.

[00:06:47] Lauren McCormack: Yeah, I mean, lean into the number, write the charter. Be the definitive, you know group within the org that, that puts pen to paper.

[00:06:56] Lauren McCormack: I, in your session in particular at Mopsapalooza, the notion that who, who, who else is better, you know, versed in the organization than Marketing Operations to own the treaties and to own the, the rules around engagement with new tech than Marketing Ops. We’re the ones that are innovating in the tools.

[00:07:17] Lauren McCormack: Heck, we have to be able to explain them to the rest of the org more often than not. So why not take on, you know, some of the opportunity with some of the onus that comes with ownership around these tools.

[00:07:28] Joe Peters: For sure. Well, let’s move to another interesting data topic, and that’s the HubSpot acquisition of Clearbit.

[00:07:37] Joe Peters: Yes. And what that means for enhancing its… It’s AI platform. So last week they announced they were acquiring a B2B data provider, Clearbit to enhance their platform with third party company, company data. And, you know, we’ve been a big fan of Clearbit for a long time. And so I think this is going to be an interesting acquisition in terms of being able to enrich internal customer data with that real time, external context, that it’s kind of a bit of a gap.

[00:08:10] Joe Peters: In well, let’s say native HubSpot, how you’re going to enrich it through other ways, or it was going to be something else. But I think we also heard that Clearbit rebuilt its data pipeline earlier this year with LLMs at the core, reinventing how it processes, categorizes, and enriches data set. And so I think here’s one interesting quote before I turn it over to you, Lauren, was thanks to this technology, Clearbit was now.

[00:08:41] Joe Peters: able to identify and enrich any company or contact data from any country in any language. And that was a quote from CEO Matt Sorenson. So I think this is a really interesting move and pretty strategic in HubSpot’s continued, let’s say, innovation and advancement as a As a platform in for marketing operations, well, and, and other parts of the business as well.

[00:09:16] Lauren McCormack: I’m so jealous. I’ve been a Marketo soul rather exclusively over the years, but, you know, dabbled in HubSpot and been tempted, you know, and curious around other platforms, you know, Active Campaign when they had Maria Pergolino. I’ve been somewhat curious, but often, you know, returned home to my roots, but with Clearbit, this is kind of where that powerful intersection that I was talking about comes into play.

[00:09:44] Lauren McCormack: Yeah. Yeah. They’re owned by HubSpot now, but I, I, I wielded Clearbit like a magic sword, 20 20 20 20 to like get into Facebook feeds, like it would give me the fuzzy match of business emails. I’ll say. Come with like a list of a thousand business emails from my target account. And it would give me a fuzzy match and say, here’s their likely social profile.

[00:10:08] Lauren McCormack: And so as people are scrolling through cute pictures of their kids and their nieces and nephews and neighbors on Halloween or over the weekend, you know, and all of a sudden this charming, you know B2B ad is popping up in a perfectly Perfectly targeted spot to meet them on the weekends and the evenings when they’re relaxed and amiable and treat like so Clearbit was wonderful then.

[00:10:34] Lauren McCormack: And I always thought, you know, we had at that time in my tech stack, multiple layers of data enrichment tools. And I always. I’ve always trusted Clear Bits Enrichment, and I won’t name names, right? Yeah. Classy. But I always trusted Data Enrichment the most, but I’ve always just loved their team. Like there’s a few people, like Sager especially over the years that have just been exceptional and watching them as a business shift.

[00:11:01] Lauren McCormack: earlier this year to like PLG and to have like, you know, like a free product for all and kind of like, what are you guys up to? Why, why are you, why are you stepping back into PLG after being B2B SaaS for paid model for so long? This explains it. Now I have my answers, Joe. Now I know why they wanted us all to come on board before, you know, they made this pivot, but I’m really intrigued to see where it’s going next.

[00:11:27] Lauren McCormack: And I’m kind of wondering what some of my clear bit merch, like my swag,

[00:11:35] Joe Peters: opportunities might be, might be even more That’s, that’s a hilarious point, but I think of the very first time I was exposed to Clearbit, I remember almost falling out of my chair that this was possible, right? The idea of this data enrichment was there and that they had invested so much in this combing the earth for contact information and being able to pop that into your CRM was…

[00:12:11] Joe Peters: Anyway, it’s still magical. It’s still, still magical.

[00:12:15] Lauren McCormack: It’s interesting, but it’s, it’s, I think they were super smart in realizing that what had been their proprietary secret sauce was now becoming public domain to some degree. I know they attempted to dip a toe in intent, but never before in my career have I seen such a jaundiced eye coming from demand marketers against intent data.

[00:12:36] Lauren McCormack: And, you know, they’re not the only game in town when it comes to data enrichment. They were wonderful at building like the TAM calculator. I helped beta test that, you know alongside their team and it’s, it’s cool stuff. I think proprietarily speaking, I mean, you can go in platform and you can look for a lot of the, the capabilities that they offer.

[00:13:00] Lauren McCormack: So they’re pivots and I think acquisition you know, out of all the course, kind of choose your own adventure paths. They could have been on from a company from a girl’s standpoint I think acquisition was perfect for them. And this is a great time for it. So i’m super excited to see where this takes them, but i’m just sad that it wasn’t adobe red Who would have made my name

[00:13:23] Joe Peters: a little bit you what you wonder if there were some stories of shopping around to see who was going to To bite on this one, but i’m sure really interesting stuff and Will be, once again, interesting to see where HubSpot’s going to take things.

[00:13:37] Joe Peters: Yeah, for sure. So, okay, let’s shift gears into our community question this week. This one’s an interesting one. So, I’m looking for advice on developing marketing ops plans. I’ve been building out, process, and refining for efficiency with no real guiding light. Any recommendations?

[00:14:01] Lauren McCormack: Revenue is your north star, friend.

[00:14:03] Lauren McCormack: Like I know it’s scary to lean into a number, especially if sales won’t even take your calls or give you the time of day. And but I think so many people at Mopsapalooza surprised me by articulating the CMO’s point of view, right? Which, of course, is the whole C suite and the board’s point of view.

[00:14:24] Lauren McCormack: You know my, my, my, Buddy, Arizona colleague down here, my, my Phoenix Mug Leader, Raja Wala, was talking about his kind of personality and the way that he’s always liked to build cool stuff. And the fact that he would go as a mop soul and he hated the strategy. He hated the conversations around building the PowerPoint for the deck and doing all the stuff.

[00:14:49] Lauren McCormack: You know, he wanted to build something super cool, you know, and whether or not it generated, you know, 5 million in pipeline or just was something that he could chat with his other, you know marketing ops souls about just from an interesting, you know, novel build standpoint. He had a pivot, I think, in his career where he realized.

[00:15:13] Lauren McCormack: The budget to build the cool stuff comes from the strategy, comes from tying to your revenue North Stars, comes from being able to articulate what the return on your time is to the bottom, the top line, right? So I think if you’re lacking direction, look at your company’s You know, strategic plan for the year, where can you support and lift the, the, the, the heavy rocks, where can you build against numbers that will build job security for your boss’s boss?

[00:15:48] Joe Peters: Well, think about it. What’s your CMO’s OKRs? Like, just like, maybe, yeah. It’s definitely not buying another technology to add to the stack. So yeah, so I think, I think you’re, you’re right. Like if, if you don’t have anything, just looking at revenue is just a great starting point. If not you can never go wrong there.

[00:16:15] Joe Peters: Pretty much.

[00:16:15] Lauren McCormack: It’s daunting. Like, I mean, some companies you know, I’ve been in a, in a case where contribution to pipeline, you know, I, I can barely tell you how many leads we got this month. Right. So work backwards from that number then and show. In incremental bite sized pieces, how you’re going to build that transparency and visibility.

[00:16:37] Lauren McCormack: And granted, prepare yourself, put a buffer point in there. Once you stand up reporting, you may not want to socialize it right away. It might be ugly, it might have some hard truths, you know. And it’s gonna, it’s gonna tell us maybe a half a story. Maybe it’s not even the full story. So don’t, don’t you know, work with a firm like ours.

[00:16:56] Lauren McCormack: Stand up reporting and then have a book. Meeting the next day to socialize that with your CMO give yourself some refinement time a little buffer is healthy, but Once you can start articulating that, you know Investment in in X Channel Gives wide contribution to close one business. Then you’re onto something, you’ve got job security, you’re able to do regression analysis so that if at the end of the year you have 5, 000 extra dollars, you know where to put it and what to, how to manage the expectations around what you’ll get back from it.

[00:17:29] Lauren McCormack: That’s the powerful conversation that I think. Would help you get to a place of transparency and visibility and alignment across the org. And that’s really what we’re supposed to be doing in ops, not just like gatekeeping and siloing and doing cool stuff under the cover of night. Like we’re supposed to be facilitating growth across the company at the end of the day.

[00:17:50] Joe Peters: Well, that’s some, some great advice. And hopefully that. Community member is listening in to this episode of Launch Codes, but all right, let’s move on to thank our sponsor. Thanks to our friends at Knack for sponsoring today’s episode. Knack is the no code platform that allows you to build campaigns in minutes.

[00:18:12] Joe Peters: Get AI powered translations in up to 75 languages in just minutes. Visit knack. com to learn more. That’s K N A K dot com. Alright, well let’s slide into our hot takes segment and as always, OpenAI is going to be part of the conversation and I know we were supposed to talk a little bit about GPT 4 Turbo and all of the things that we can get with that in terms of what they announced on developer day with, you know, context length increases and all these other things.

[00:18:51] Joe Peters: But I have to ask you, have you had a chance to play around or seen any of the build your own GPTs yet, Lauren? Have you seen any experiments?

[00:19:04] Lauren McCormack: A little bit. Yeah. Last week while, while you were in Anaheim, Lucas got under the hood. Our, our, our our brilliant scientists, our, our math major gone AI marketing ops genius.

[00:19:17] Lauren McCormack: Was, was experimenting a bit with training, you know individual agents that were, were representative of like the brain trust. You know what I mean? Let’s, let’s feed the monster, right? With as much as we can, as much proprietary knowledge as we can. And of course my first thing was like. Are we sure this is secure?

[00:19:39] Lauren McCormack: Lucas ? Yeah. Yeah. I was like, are we sure anything is secure? And I’m like, that is such a fear. Yeah. But,

[00:19:44] Joe Peters: But above and beyond, yeah. That, that, that’s always the question at the, at the forefront of our mind. But I do feel like there is an R-P-G-P-T coming out in the Yeah. In the future. And you know, we’ll probably kick it around internally for a bit first, but such an amazing.

[00:20:05] Joe Peters: opPortunity to play around, not just in, our little world, but in general, I think we’re going to see some of these custom GPTs just kind of take off and the way that you have the ability to not only to set. Some context by uploading some documents to sort of focus the, the GPT, but the ability to also connect other plugins or actually other APIs to do other tasks.

[00:20:34] Joe Peters: I think our imaginations have got to be opened up a little bit to see where the opportunities potentially could be, because it’s kind of mind blowing where, where you could. We, you could potentially go with this. So anyway,

[00:20:50] Lauren McCormack: it’s, it’s the, it’s the beginning of kind of the, the visualization and the expansion, I think of, of seeing what kind of potential we can realize with this technology.

[00:21:00] Lauren McCormack: You know, this is, these are the, the, the little widgets in the fact, these are the Pokemon that the Pokemon trainers will wield, right?

[00:21:09] Joe Peters: Well, I, I thought it was interesting I saw a little clip from, from Sam Altman when he was saying, we have to get the world familiar with AI. So we’re going to release it incrementally so people can become accustomed to it and not just wait for it to be perfect.

[00:21:29] Joe Peters: So I think that’s the other thing with these GPTs, like everything there’s, there’s going to still be the odd hallucination. You’re going to get some results that maybe you don’t like. But. We’re in this experimentation phase where we’ve, we’ve got to play around a little bit.

[00:21:44] Lauren McCormack: Yeah, definitely. This is the time to be curious and stay curious and ask questions of what the potential, the unbridled potential really looks like.

[00:21:53] Lauren McCormack: This is where dreaming big is going to pay off in, in spades. You can’t, you can’t just avoid it. That’s for sure.

[00:21:59] Joe Peters: Yeah. Well, it’s always nice to get a couple of new toys in the sandbox, that’s for sure. And so I feel like we got thrown a couple of new ones, so that’s, that’s pretty interesting. But let’s shift into the next topic, which is kind of funny, because we hear a lot about AI taking away everyone’s job.

[00:22:18] Joe Peters: Well, LinkedIn’s spinning that a little bit and saying that AI will find you jobs. And so they’re testing features to generate… Cover letter like messages so that candidates can send these into the hiring platforms.

[00:22:33] Lauren McCormack: I did my job. They pitched me. They’re like, Hey, test out our new, you know, generative AI tools to improve your LinkedIn presence.

[00:22:43] Lauren McCormack: I’m like, all right, let’s talk, you know, let’s see what you got there. And I didn’t spend a whole lot of time training my algorithm to be fair, but it does have plenty of data on me. But what it suggested for like a profile summary. It was incredibly boring. And I don’t know. It didn’t, it didn’t really capture any of my essence, I didn’t feel like.

[00:23:07] Lauren McCormack: And so I tried again, and maybe one more time, and then I just kind of abandoned. I think GPT understands me better, maybe because I have a name for my GPT relationship. But I don’t have a relationship with LinkedIn’s AI, clearly. They don’t, they don’t get me. And I felt, I felt kind of sad about that.

[00:23:29] Joe Peters: I think the last thing you want to do with your cover letter is have anyone on the receiving end think that, Oh, this was generated by AI.

[00:23:39] Joe Peters: You know, Like, if there’s a time to sort of try and stand out now, it’s going to be to abandon the AI and trying to make yourself notice. So, anyway, probably more, more, more to come here, but right now, probably safe to say our hot take is it’s a little bit underwhelming.

[00:24:01] Lauren McCormack: Mm hmm. So far. Yep.

[00:24:04] Joe Peters: Okay. Well, let’s move into, well, the fun’s not going to stop here.

[00:24:09] Joe Peters: We’re going to move into our airing segment and a chance to talk music for a little bit. So our album this week I have right here, just let me reach over. It is the Yai Yai Yazz, which and their latest album Cool It Down. Pretty cool cover here. Big fans of this band, but also of Karen Oh, the lead singer.

[00:24:33] Joe Peters: She, she is has a. Spot close to my heart when she started to have a family just around the same time that I started to be a dad, and so she took a little bit of a break, but then during that break to focus on being a mom, she recorded a soundtrack for Where the Wild Things Are, which was a favorite book in my house, and so that soundtrack and a movie was on repeat for many, many weeks as you know, kids are ought to do, but they’re back at it and back on the festival circuit.

[00:25:06] Joe Peters: And so this latest album, cool it down really a nice purple marble vinyl on, on this one. And the track we have is called burning. And which is kind of funny, cool it down, but then the single is called Burning. You wonder where their creative juxtaposition is there. But anyway It’s, you’re, so the way that we’re doing it now is on the podcast, on launch codes.

[00:25:33] Joe Peters: You have to wait till the very end. Now you have to, you have to hear the close, and then we have a little bit of an outro and you’ll be able to see the album if you’re watching the video on Spotify or YouTube, but. You’ll also be able to hear it the audio of the song. If but we’re, we’re putting it at the end just so that it doesn’t overlay against our voices and make it tricky for you to hear.

[00:25:57] Joe Peters: So that’s this week’s album. Now, why are we pairing with it for beverage this week?

[00:26:04] Lauren McCormack: So you got me thinking about this whole international. Need for for a coffee that’s available outside of Tucson. So So we’re all market yesterday and I picked up some dark matter, which also incidentally has an espresso called unicorn blood Which is really good.

[00:26:24] Lauren McCormack: Wow. Yeah, but for today we picked starry eyes It’s by Dark Matter. It’s their darkest roast. What a great packaging. Isn’t it gorgeous? They’re out of Chicago. And they’re a fun brand. I have to admit, I do like my, my darker, darker, darker roasts here in Tucson a bit more. I thought, considering the complexities of weather and, and just general Chicagoan nature, having been a Chicagoan for a good long while, that.

[00:26:53] Lauren McCormack: The darkest of dark roasts would come from my former hometown, but this is not a bad cup. I do pick up some brown sugar and it is their deepest, darkest roast from what I understand. But worth, worth a spin. And I think it should be more, more geographically available than some of my other choices have been.

[00:27:12] Lauren McCormack: You

[00:27:12] Joe Peters: know what, I was going to ask you that. Well, that looks delicious. And they get 10 out of 10 on the branding of Of the pound like that is that is amazing in my I was on the road last week for mops, a palooza, and then also did a little jaunt down to check out the San Diego part of the coast, which is really fantastic.

[00:27:35] Joe Peters: But in my hotel room, I’ve never seen this before. They set you up with a kettle and then had coffee that you put in like a tea bag and you don’t to it. And, you know, steeped it the way you would tea and pulled it out, but I’ve, I’ve had, I don’t know, probably several million coffees in my life at this point.

[00:28:00] Joe Peters: And I have never, ever seen that. Have you ever seen

[00:28:03] Lauren McCormack: that? It’s sensible. My French press is from Clearbit to take things fully. They sent me a French press once upon a time. I mean,

[00:28:13] Joe Peters: French press ish. Yeah.

[00:28:17] Lauren McCormack: Cold brew bags. But I’ve never, was it cold, bro? Or was it? No,

[00:28:22] Joe Peters: no, they gave you a kettle, which was also kind of a fancy, funky kind of new kettle.

[00:28:28] Joe Peters: You know, those ones that you put down and then you set the temperature on it and then press the button. So anyway, it was very Different, but something that I’d never come across. So the fact that it was a shock for me, it’s a surprise for the coffee connoisseur as well. Yeah.

[00:28:44] Lauren McCormack: Well, I know that instant coffee had its moment and I’m kind of happy that that didn’t catch on, but I’m curious.

[00:28:50] Joe Peters: No, no, no. This, this was, I’m going to say it was fairly delicious. Not. But definitely wasn’t instant coffee in any of the sink or whatever the,

[00:29:01] Lauren McCormack: And that wasn’t really a welcoming, I, the ritual itself is, is part of the charm, I think, you know,

[00:29:07] Joe Peters: but it was combining the Tea and coffee ritual, which was weird.

[00:29:13] Joe Peters: But anyway, sometimes you, you learn more than you you thought you were when you listened to LaunchCode. So we just added that little extra in for you this week, but well, thanks Lauren. And thanks everyone for listening this week. Be sure to subscribe, rate, and review. You can find us on Spotify, YouTube, and Apple podcasts.

[00:29:33] Joe Peters: Stay connected with us on LinkedIn, or by joining our newsletter, also called Launch Codes, using the link in the description. And as always, thanks mom for watching. Have a great week, everyone. Take care, everybody.

[Episode 9] MOPs-Apalooza 2023

For our ninth episode of Launch Codes, Joe and Andy are recording from a suite in Anaheim, California as they attend MOPs-Apalooza 2023! They discuss several of their favorite keynotes at the event, as well as Andy’s own presentation. Later in the episode, they touch on some fascinating AI news including OpenAI’s latest GPT enhancements and Elon Musk’s new ChatGPT rival “Grok”.


Listen Below


Episode Summary


MOPs-Apalooza 2023

Today’s episode was recorded on November 8th, 2023 — the final day of MOPs-Apalooza. Joe and Andy kick things off by commending Mike Rizzo and the entire MO Pro’s team on an outstanding inaugural event that exceeded expectations. There were several takeaways from every single session, and the whole thing was professional and engaging all the way through. Let’s get into some of their favorite keynotes and moments below.

Opening Session by Scott Brinker

MOPs-Apalooza 2023 started strong with a session titled “A Martech Supercollision: Smashing Together AI, Cloud Data, & Composability” presented by Scott Brinker (Editor at and VP of Platform Ecosystem at HubSpot). Both Joe and Andy were instantly captured by this one, stating that there were “aha” moments seemingly every few minutes. Joe highlighted a particular standout point on how we are moving along an “innovation timeline” moving from “code” to “low code” to “no code” with AI driving this disruption at every level of our organizations. Andy echoed the importance of this perspective and reflected on Scott’s ability to simplify complex topics into digestible pieces that really resonate.

The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Attribution by Andy Caron

Next up, the two dive into an incredible moment for Andy who had her own session at MOPs-Apalooza this year! The title of her presentation —“The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Attribution” — is inspired by one of her favorite novels of all time, “The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy” by Douglas Adams. Andy reflects on how she immediately fell in love with the novels over 20 years ago, highlighting Adams’ unique ability to offer deep insights into human nature and the world around us in a way that is fun and entertaining.

(Spoiler warning ahead for those who haven’t read the books yet!)

Andy explains how in the story, a supercomputer named “Deep Thought” says the answer to the ultimate question of the meaning of life, the universe, and everything is “42”. The overly intelligent race in the story wants to understand what this number means, but the computer says “They must understand the question for the answer to make sense”. From there, they develop an even greater, more complex computer to find the question to that answer.

This story parallels the exact attribution journey that Andy has seen many companies go through. She describes how people in organizations today are also looking for answers on where (and how) they should invest in complex AI models to drive revenue. They get results that don’t make a lot of sense, so they develop even more complex systems to find the question they should be asking around the answer they couldn’t interpret. Overall, the presentation was a resounding success, and Joe iterated how he was in the room and could tell that the audience was completely engaged.

It was a special moment for Andy and one she said she’ll remember for the rest of her life. She also shared that, to commemorate the convergence of people and the significance of finally bringing this presentation to an audience after a year of working on it, she got her very first tattoo! It was none other than the number “42” on her ankle. Listen to the full episode for more details on Andy’s presentation and the full story behind that awesome tattoo. You can also download the ebook Andy wrote as a companion to her presentation.

Other MOPs-Apalooza Highlights

The following are three other keynote presentations that Joe and Andy enjoyed at the event:

1. Translating Geek Speak to CMO Speak: Unveiling the Secrets to MOPS Career Success
by Jessica Kao and David Alexander

Joe absolutely loved the way they started this session. He highlighted an incredible point that David made which was: As a CMO, he doesn’t want to hear the name of a platform, he doesn’t know if it’s a “Marketo” thing or a “lean data” thing, he just wants to know what it does. This mindset shift towards an emphasis on what a system actually does and the role it plays resonated with Joe and Andy both.

Another part of the presentation they appreciated was the idea that we don’t need to tell our CMOs when something is broken or something can’t be done. Instead, focus on what you can deliver now and the goal you’re moving towards.

2. Get the F*ck Unstuck: How to Unlock Your True Potential
by Hana Jacover

This was another presentation that dealt less with the technical side of things and more on life and how to be successful and happy. Hana specifically touched on self-care and how to take care of yourself in our demanding roles at work. Joe had the opportunity to chat with her after the session and was blown away by her approach.

A standout moment was when she explained how biologically, we are just not designed to take 3 90 minute Zoom calls back-to-back-to-back. We need to have that level of self-awareness and reflect on how we set up the day for ourselves. Andy emphasized the importance of events like MOPs-Apalooza, and how these conferences not only offer technical growth sessions but also personal growth sessions like this one.

3. Building A Unified MOPS Data Platform
by Ryan Vong

The final honorable mention dives back into the technical side of things. It was the last session they attended and Ryan hit multiple home runs. One thing that really stuck with Joe was Ryan’s idea on the cost of bad data, which was: It costs $1 to be preemptive about bad data, $10 to fix bad data after the fact, and $100 if you don’t address it at all — for every data problem that you have.

Another idea that both Joe and Andy resonated with was the modern approach of pushing for “DataOps” which is an area where MOPs can play a real leadership role that connects Sales and Marketing. Andy remembers how even before “MOPs” was a title, she worked in “Database Marketing” which has now come full circle to include the data that is going into our systems.


Hot Takes



Since our team was on location in Anaheim at MOPs-Apalooza, Joe wasn’t able to bring any physical records for this week’s pairings. But he did give a shout out to the recently released single, “Now and Then” by The Beatles – a beautiful song that was completely with the help of AI! For Anydy’s pairing, she recommended a book called “The Master Switch: The Rise and Fall of Information Empires” by Tim Wu. It’s a book she has read several times, gaining new insights from every reread.


Read The Transcript

Disclaimer: This transcript was created by AI using Descript and has not been edited.

[00:00:00] Joe Peters:: Welcome to episode nine. I’m your host, Joe Peters. On today’s episode, Top of the Ops, highlights from Mopsapalooza 2023, a cornucopia of treats from AI This Week. And I’m joined live on, on location here at Mopsapalooza in Anaheim, California with Andy. And Andy, what are you excited to talk about this week?

[00:00:26] Andy Caron:: All of it, but especially Mousepalooza, just what an amazing event, absolutely just top

[00:00:32] Joe Peters:: notch. Yeah, I think it exceeded all of our expectations. Hats off to all of the team, Mike Rizzo and the gang. They’ve just really outdone themselves for a first conference. It was professional and engaging from minute one.

[00:00:53] Andy Caron:: Yes, absolutely. Every, every session I went to, there was a, there was a winner. There was at least several takeaways that I was actually taking notes on. It wasn’t just like, Oh, this is interesting, but not actionable. So many actionable things. Yeah. Yeah. Incredible.

[00:01:09] Joe Peters:: I, and just from the opening keynote with Scott Brinker, that was, that was incredible.

[00:01:15] Joe Peters:: There were aha moments it seemed like every couple of minutes that you’d run through something and just trigger a light bulb and you’d be, Oh, I hadn’t really thought about it that way. Oh, that’s a really good way of categorizing things. I really loved when he talked about this innovation timeline and moving from.

[00:01:36] Joe Peters:: Code to low code to no code and how it’s kind of like the democratization of, I’m going to say marketing from a technology base, but really empowering marketers to do a lot more than they ever could.

[00:01:56] Andy Caron:: Absolutely. And to be thinking about. Both came right before he, he affairs with me before we cam. like not being bankrupt is a good way to things that, that they probably had,

[00:02:15] Joe Peters:: Possibly thought about back then.

[00:02:18] Joe Peters:: Certainly I’m one of the people who was like, I mean, Coding, low code, no code evolution, and how it connects to AI and use cases. So the idea of that low end use case, that mid range use case, that high end use case, that it’s going to have significant impact in your organization and how no code in AI is driving this transformation within organizations, driving this disruption.

[00:02:48] Joe Peters:: He said, I don’t like saying transformation. We can go with disruption. We’re good with that one. But. I love that framing and integration of those two

[00:02:58] Andy Caron:: concepts. Well, and the fact that he’d already… He had already passed, right, like, the first stage and was already heading into that mid range, right? Like, he had blown past slow, like, that’s already happening, we’re in trajectory for mid already, and it’s happening just so fast.

[00:03:14] Andy Caron:: It’s really, it, yeah, which is true, but I hadn’t paused to think about it and go, yeah, that already happened, like, that’s already the past. It was, yeah, he was phenomenal. And I somehow, this is bad to say, but I somehow missed that he was going to be our first keynote. And so when they said that’s who was coming on stage, I was like, Oh, yes, yes, yes.

[00:03:35] Andy Caron:: So excited. He was, it was phenomenal speaker to see. He just, he simplified such complexity down into digestible pieces that allowed you to really take something and consider it without feeling overwhelmed by it.

[00:03:48] Joe Peters:: Yeah. There were so many takeaways from that. And I’m still waiting to get access to his deck.

[00:03:53] Joe Peters:: He said he was going to share it, but we haven’t seen it yet. There’s just a treasure trove of information and insights there. Well, speaking of treasure trove and let’s segue right into your session where you kind of looked at the meaning of life, the universe and attribution. And there’s so many different layers we can start with here, but Just a small thing to tackle.

[00:04:16] Joe Peters:: Why don’t we, why don’t we start with your, this is your labour of love passion project with some, you know, The Hitchhiker’s Guide, which is your, your, arguably your favourite, most favourite novel. Yes. Tell everyone a little bit about what your mindset was and thinking about this and then I can tell you how it came off But why don’t you talk about your process there?

[00:04:41] Joe Peters:: Yes,

[00:04:42] Andy Caron:: so I read Hitchhiker’s Guide and the concurrent novels over 20 years ago immediately fell in love it was just a Love affair of the the merging of Comedy and sci fi, but with this level of insight into the world, humanity, how we’re wired, and a nuanced way of, of making fun of it and critiquing it and kind of pointing things out without just overtly saying, here’s the, the, the fun.

[00:05:14] Andy Caron:: Flawed aspects of humanity or just consciousness as a whole. And also here’s a fun ride to take along with all of that as you hitchhike across the galaxy and, and have just this like sort of stupid, like in what. Galaxy is a towel, the most useful thing, right? But it is, so it’s, it’s, it’s a fun thing.

[00:05:36] Andy Caron:: So about a year ago, I was thinking about. The sort of parable within the novels of this pan dimensional super race of beings that decided that they wanted to or maybe even needed to know the answer to the ultimate question of the meaning of life, universe, and everything. It’s a huge question, right? And so they built a supercomputer, Deep Thought, to tell them the answer.

[00:06:05] Andy Caron:: And they waited generations, tens of thousands of years. And the culture was just focused and centric around the output that they would eventually get from deep thought and how that would bring everything together. And their whole culture was almost like dependent on whatever this answer would be. It’s a media frenzy around it.

[00:06:27] Andy Caron:: And then the day comes. And out, you know, pops the answer, deep thoughts, like the answer to the ultimate question of the meaning of life, universe, and everything is 42. Exactly. And pin drop, right? Like what, what do you do with that? Right? It’s, it’s such a nonsensical answer. And so of course they do what any overly intelligent organization, race, Would do culture in a planet and they say, okay, well, what’s that mean?

[00:06:59] Andy Caron:: The computer says, well, only when you know the question, well, the answer makes sense, right? So at that point they’re invested. They say, what’s, what’s the question? And the computer says, I can’t tell you that, but I can help you to develop this bigger, more complex, intensely complex computer that will give you the answer.

[00:07:18] Andy Caron:: And then, or the question rather, and then the answer will make sense. And the parable of this against people within their own organizations, building these very complex systems or adopting these very complex AI models and looking for the answer of where they should be investing and how they can make more money, how they can drive revenue, the dependency on that and waiting for the results rather than Continuing to evolve and take action and looking for meaning within the minutia of the day to day and then getting an answer that makes no sense, they double, triple, quadruple down and make an even more complex system to then get, you know, the question that they should be asking around the answer that they received because it didn’t make any sense to me just was too attribution journey that I’ve seen so many organizations take.

[00:08:09] Andy Caron:: It was too perfect.

[00:08:11] Joe Peters:: 100%. And I, what I thought was so cool was. The idea of using 42 as that placeholder and that you, that in the answer 42, 42 has meaning for everyone and everyone gets to figure out what their 42 is. Well

[00:08:26] Andy Caron:: that, that was, that was the, the, the linchpin for me when I knew I needed to take this.

[00:08:32] Andy Caron:: into this form of presentation, so I came across the fact, and Douglas Adams claims that this was not intentional, I don’t know, maybe it’s subconscious, maybe it was intentional, he just didn’t want to say so, but he was a technophile, he loved computers, he loved computer language, early language that he was a big fan of, ASC 2, 42 is the keystroke for an asterisk, and when you think about in the context of data, the asterisk is a placeholder, it’s something, to your point, that you put in place when you don’t, you know you don’t know something, there’s something there, But I love this idea of 42 in that computer, deep thoughts language is an asterisk and an asterisk essentially means whatever you need it to mean.

[00:09:13] Andy Caron:: And so this huge question had an answer that was exceptionally deep actually that could have, that could have fed their media circus for generations, right? What is the meaning of everything? Whatever you need it to mean for you, there’s, there’s something there, right? In the same way that 42 meant nothing to them, the data that marketers are getting from attribution doesn’t mean anything to them because a, the questions are too big and they’re trying to get too much out of one question and one answer, but also be, they’re not speaking the language of their systems, their data to actually understand that there is a deeper meeting in there.

[00:09:56] Andy Caron:: They just. aren’t either speaking their computer’s language or getting the computer to be able to speak their language to output what that action or that meaning is or should

[00:10:06] Joe Peters:: be. It was I can tell it was extremely well received. Not only was I in the room, but I could observe. And what I find in, when you’re going to different sessions, the sign of good session is how often people are bringing up their phones, right?

[00:10:21] Joe Peters:: Oh, I got to capture that. I got to capture that. It was, and he was a celebrity with all the shots that were taken of her, but. I think the other part and I don’t know if this is fair for me to ask but there’s another 42 story that we added In terms of some ink, being added this week. So why don’t why don’t you share share

[00:10:41] Andy Caron:: that story?

[00:10:42] Andy Caron:: Yes Yes, so I found out in advance of coming that there were going to be tattoos happening

[00:10:53] Andy Caron:: On real tattoos And in in preparing for my session I had had this It’s sort of a recurrence of 42. It just was this bizarre thing. Like I actually took my progression and put it into chat GPT to make sure my timing was on point. Right. And I judged and I was pulling it back and saying, okay, well, if I take this long and these slides, how do I get within the range of that, you know, 40 to 45 minute slot that I needed to hit And the final pass, because I, I, after that I was like, I’m done.

[00:11:18] Andy Caron:: I can’t, I can’t do any more. It came back and it said, your session will take 42 minutes and 42 seconds. And I literally cackled out loud. I was like, I see you Douglas Adams, right? Like, yeah. So I have never gotten a tattoo before. I, I, I was a noob. And I, I really, I thought about it long and hard, but.

[00:11:40] Andy Caron:: The, the, in college, everyone was getting them, right? And I always looked at it and said, I don’t know that I want anything on my body until I’m 80. But the reality is, I mean, God willing, I make it to 80, but I think that it, the, the convergence of the people, the significance of what happened here and being able to bring this session that I’ve, I’ve literally been developing for a year, To this particular conference at this time was something that I do want to remember until I’m 80.

[00:12:11] Andy Caron:: And so I got a I got a 42 on my ankle. I just got goosebumps

[00:12:14] Joe Peters:: there. I just got goosebumps because not only do you have that memory, but it’s also, you’ve created a gift for everyone as well. And that you’ve taken this guide and now there is a little ebook on this that, that is available so that if you missed, if you’re getting FOMO from this discussion on the session there is the ability for you to, to download and, and check out what Andy’s been sharing in terms of connecting your guide to the galaxy and attribution is now at your fingertips.

[00:12:46] Joe Peters:: But Andy, congrats on a great session, but let’s get to a couple of other ones that we, we really enjoyed. The first one, there was some non technical streams that I thought were really cool. And by non technical, I wasn’t getting into the nuts and bolts or deep into the technologies, but we’re talking about life and how do you be successful.

[00:13:12] Joe Peters:: So we’re And Jessica Kao, and what was the other guy’s name? David Alexander. David Alexander. They did a session on how to speak the language of your CMO. That might not be the exact title of it, but just work with us here. Yes. Yes. Because I… Loved the way they started the session, and David had some really incredible points.

[00:13:33] Joe Peters:: He said, I never want to hear the name as a CMO. I never want to hear the name of a platform. Don’t tell me a platform. I don’t want to know that. This is a marketo thing or a lean data thing or a clear, but then I just I want to know what it does. So talk to me, just change your mindset a little bit. And I don’t want to hear you mention a platform.

[00:13:51] Joe Peters:: Just tell me about what this system does or what the system’s role is. And I felt like that was, I think for people in the room, I, you could see people’s brains exploding at that idea because we’re so close to it. We live and breathe this. But it’s our language, not the language of leadership. But

[00:14:11] Andy Caron:: I think as very technical people, right, we figure something out, we crack something, and we get really excited about it, and we want to go share that.

[00:14:19] Andy Caron:: But ultimately what we’re not doing, instead of saying like, Oh, there’s this really cool thing I made the system do. I did this cool thing in the system, that’s great, but here’s the outcome that will be driven because of it and that’s what ladders up into senior leadership. What are the outcomes that are occurring within the business?

[00:14:36] Andy Caron:: Or what if you stopped that now, you know, has improved things that will then yield outcomes. Yeah, right. That flipping the script to talking about not what matters to you, but what matters to them. And

[00:14:53] Joe Peters:: I thought the other part, if we take the sort of the next step in that was Don’t tell me when something’s broken or what you can’t do.

[00:15:02] Joe Peters:: Okay. Tell me what you can deliver and what you’re moving towards. But this idea that, you know, we all live in this world where we want perfection and mobs, and some of that is going to be like Maslow’s hierarchy. We may never reach self actualization when it comes to getting everything working perfectly.

[00:15:21] Joe Peters:: So we can always get mired in this. This is broken. I can’t do this. I can’t do this. Look what I inherited. No, no, no. That’s another change in mindset to start to think through this. I can do this right now, and I want to be able to do this next. Beautiful language. A love language.

[00:15:41] Andy Caron:: Yes. I will fund you improving efficiency from 75 to 85.

[00:15:46] Andy Caron:: But I will not fund something where it’s, it’s broken in and I want to fix it. Right? It’s, it’s the gain, not the current status. Yes.

[00:15:56] Joe Peters:: So, great session. A reminder for all of us, and I, I really feel it was an eye opener for those people in the room. It’s a session that a lot of people have continued to talk about, and that was on Monday.

[00:16:07] Joe Peters:: Yes. For those of you at home, it’s Wednesday today, so just it, we, it, it’s a, it’s a theme that I think really resonated with a lot of people. And then this next session that, Hannah Yakover, or I think that’s how you pronounce her last name on self care and, and, and the idea of how do you optimize yourself and how do you take care of yourself in our demanding work life?

[00:16:35] Joe Peters:: So what’s that balance? That you need to create, and what does that look like? And I was just blown away having the chance to chat with her after the session, and hear about her approach, and, and, and, and, and the, I don’t know, it just, there was like light bulb, light bulb, light bulb going off the whole time.

[00:16:56] Andy Caron:: Yes, yes, I mean, I think, Having an opportunity in the middle of pursuing growth, right? That’s what most of us are here for at this type of a conference to realize that, you know, it’s not the technical growth. Right. It’s, it’s getting yourself unstuck from other areas that then allow you to have the baseline to then have the capacity to grow more in the technical and other areas of your career, right?

[00:17:22] Andy Caron:: Personal growth leads to career growth. And I think the connection between those two things is just so powerful.

[00:17:28] Joe Peters:: And I, I, what, what I took away from my chatting with her was. We often don’t think about how do we perform our best at a biological level. We’re not equipped to do three 90 minute zooms back to back to back.

[00:17:45] Joe Peters:: We’re not equipped for that. We’re never going to perform our best in those situations. So that self awareness, that reflection on what we set ourselves up to, what do we put our hands up for? Oh, I can’t miss that. I can’t miss that. And also how do we reset that? These are very powerful things for people to think about, to complement your technological skills with that self awareness, self care, to speak the language of CMOs and leadership.

[00:18:17] Joe Peters:: These are some really beautiful connections being made between what is essential to be successful in

[00:18:24] Andy Caron:: our work life. Yes, and I think it just… Shows how much we’ve come in the sense that these are the conversations that we’re having. It’s not just a way to do really cool stuff, right? It’s how to get yourself to a place where you can do really cool stuff.

[00:18:42] Andy Caron:: And that’s such a wonderful evolution to see for such a technical community. That those are the conversations that we’re having that people are continuing to talk about. These two sessions were two of the most talked about sessions that I encountered across the entirety of this whole conference, because they, they, they, they stepped back.

[00:19:02] Andy Caron:: I mean, I love all the conversation on AI, APS, right? All these cool things that people are doing, but at the end of the day, you can’t do any of that if you’re not doing this.

[00:19:10] Joe Peters:: Exactly, exactly. And well, I, it is also. Eye opening for us to make sure we’re not forgetting all those different pieces. Yeah. As, as leaders in our, in our organization, really making sure that we’re helping equip people in all of these different areas to be successful.

[00:19:31] Joe Peters:: But now the nerd back, like just to get back into it, we just finished seeing this morning. The last session for us was one that Ryan Vaughn put on and Ryan is, He was an extremely thoughtful and passionate person. He was a little nervous going into a session, but he hit a home run, maybe multiple home runs.

[00:19:55] Joe Peters:: It was, it was excellent. And he went on this journey in Canada, we’ll often say he went for a walk in the snow to kind of figure out what he was doing next. And then he came across this challenge of data. Yes. What’s happening with data and what are we doing with it? How are we optimizing it? How are we, how are we making it sure that it’s a partner in our business and an accelerator in our business and not an anchor that we’re dragging along on the ground?

[00:20:32] Joe Peters:: And I, I, there was a couple of things that really struck with me. You know, he had this idea of the cost of bad data. It’s 1 to be preemptive 10 to fix it. And it’s a hundred dollars if you don’t do anything with it for every data problem that you have. And so when you, when you add that, add that up exponentially, that looks that those can be some really big numbers, but this other idea that we need to expand our thinking into A new model of of a modern data approach where we’ve thought of rev ops, we thought of marketing ops, but now we need to be pushing for data ops and, and that is a real role where mops can play a leadership in the connectivity between whether that’s sales, marketing it, this is a journey that cannot be, executed by a single part of the organization, but it can be led.

[00:21:32] Joe Peters:: And I think this is a really great place for, for mobsta to maybe put another hat on, or at least another pin on it, on, on our hats.

[00:21:40] Andy Caron:: Yes. But I think it’s interesting too. I’ve had a number of, of great conversations with some very smart people this week and, and the persistent theme, which Ryan really, I think, hit home was.

[00:21:56] Andy Caron:: I remember one of my very first titles before mops was even a title was database marketing, right? Yeah. And we’re in that final stage of transitioning from being responsible for databases to becoming responsible for data, right? And how that transition from database within a specific system into data within the ecosystem and all the systems as a whole is a paradigm shift that we have to make now.

[00:22:29] Andy Caron:: And then the orchestration of that and how Ryan’s thinking about that is the part that I am so, I’m most in love

[00:22:39] Joe Peters:: with. This concept of composability is something that’s come up in a lot of conversations. Such a through line, yes. And, and I really do think that you know, whether we’re talking about ETLs, reverse ETLs, and, and this idea of interconnectivity.

[00:22:55] Joe Peters:: What has been our aspirational place to be, we have the pieces in place to make it a reality and it’s, it’s going to take some time and investment, but it’s, that’s where the dividends are coming from and not the losses. And that’s, I think that understanding that tension and understanding that opportunity is super important.

[00:23:18] Joe Peters:: Okay, well, as you can tell, we’re big fans of Mopsapalooza. There was no shortage of fun, but before we move on to some of our hot takes, I’d like to thank our sponsors at Knack for helping us out with today’s episode. Knack is the no code platform that allows you to build campaigns in minutes. Learn why tens of thousands of marketers rely on Knack to create beautiful on brand emails and landing pages.

[00:23:51] Joe Peters:: So, like every week, this is another mammoth week in AI developments. So, the, I’m not sure, the coincidence. It definitely is an irony, but I’m going to say the coincidence of Grok being released by Elon and the gang at AI, X. AI on on Sunday and the idea that Grok was going to take a theme of the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy as kind of the Style and humanization, it, it was, can we have any more symbolism?

[00:24:29] Joe Peters:: There’s a

[00:24:29] Andy Caron:: synchronicity to it, right? Like there is, there is that, that bit of, yes.

[00:24:33] Joe Peters:: It’s not a coincidence. This is beyond coincidence. This is the universe saying, hey, there’s too many things to check here. So. It’s early days on Grok. Like we’re, we don’t, no one can get really access to it now. It’s going to be a while before we get to play around with it.

[00:24:50] Joe Peters:: But I think what I’ve taken away from the things that I’ve seen so far is it’s the Twitter idea of freedom of speech being taken to AI. And so the guardrails that. The gang at OpenAI has put on on GPT and making sure that you can’t, you know, generate offensive content. Or that there isn’t a bias or any of those things is kind of out the window.

[00:25:19] Joe Peters:: What I’m seeing a lot of people start to play around with is, roast this person viciously. Use vulgar, say this in a vulgar way. And the, and the AI responding with, without those guardrails. So I don’t know, like, are these screenshots that people are manipulating? We’re not going to be able to know for sure, but I think it’s a whole new era where we’re taking this free speech concept.

[00:25:43] Joe Peters:: If these, if these things that people are sharing are true, we’re in for something. And I don’t think we can really predict how, how much of an impact this kind of. Open, free speech can, can have, and I’m going to say the negative sides of this, and we like to, we like to talk about the positives, but the negatives on this, it, it has me a tiny bit concerned.

[00:26:10] Andy Caron:: Agreed. I don’t know. It’s, it’s, this is, this is one of those things where there isn’t a good gray area, right? Like either it is open or it’s closed, right? That, that, that is the dichotomy that we have to live it within here. And so I think we have to try both ways and see how it works and then make a decision I know it’s going to be it’s going to be not great I think there’s going to be some really negative things that come out of it some scary stuff some things that Maybe turn people off and people, you know scale back from it a little bit Maybe take a step back and really think but i’d rather have us taking a step back and thinking about it now and then moving forward in a very You know thoughtful way than having this, you know scale out later, but it yeah, it’s gonna be

[00:26:56] Joe Peters:: interesting and you know I love twitter twitter and linkedin for business.

[00:27:02] Joe Peters:: I feel like are so important, sources of information I love my feeds. I love what I get but linkedin is a very positive environment. Yes, okay twitter can be assessed pool of negativity And so it’s going to be interesting as we move out of this i’m going to say Boundaries set to this unshackling of the Yeah, it’s going to be interesting.

[00:27:30] Joe Peters:: Interesting is pro is not strong enough. But anyway. No we’ll, we’ll, Elon, he , he knows . He, he definitely is an interesting character and we shouldn’t be surprised that this is his

[00:27:43] Andy Caron:: take on it. No, not at all. In fact, if anything, it was almost too unbrand.

[00:27:50] Joe Peters:: Too much for us. Well, he is too much for, for many people, but he is a very successful entrepreneur.

[00:27:57] Joe Peters:: So we, we can’t we can’t take that away from him. So let’s switch to the open AI announcements and this, we could do the whole launch codes episode on what happened this week with the developer conference and some of the things that have come out. I’ve been like refreshing and refreshing my GPT interface to see if I’ve got the new features enabled because I can’t wait to play with this, but the one that I am just fascinated with is the idea of creating your own GPT.

[00:28:30] Joe Peters:: So you’re going to have your own agents. So you get to. Upload some content, set some parameters around how that GPT is going to behave, how you get to name it, you get to give it a an image or a brand associated with it, and then that you get to save and share that you can either use it for personal use.

[00:28:50] Joe Peters:: Or you can use it you can, you can share it with the world. People will be able to sell these eventually as well. So these are enterprise, which is really where we’re emphasizing. Enterprises will be able to create their own GPTs internally and be able to share them only internally. And that’s going to be a beautiful thing as well.

[00:29:09] Joe Peters:: So I don’t know, I, that, that there are a million other announcements this week in terms of. Things that are going to be improvement, but this is the one that I, I can’t wait to see what we can do with it.

[00:29:20] Andy Caron:: Yeah. I think this is a nod to what people are already doing kind of within their own smaller chat GPTs.

[00:29:27] Andy Caron:: They’re, they’re building out, you know, their helper, their model, right? Like I know someone who’s got a lieutenant data, right? We’ve got someone on staff who’s got buttercup, the unicorn. And that is, he is her, her go to for things, right? A friend recently sent me a chat GPT model that had been built. To respond as if Douglas Adams were sending the response back to you.

[00:29:48] Andy Caron:: So this idea of that customization, this is just making it more accessible, customizable, truly like a a unique version of that engagement and interaction model that you’re already kind of doing on your own, but really cementing it. It’s very

[00:30:05] Joe Peters:: cool. Super cool. And. The idea of these being either web connected or not or having different plugins that they can rely on and I, I think we’re in for a world of creativity and advancement just from this one announcement alone, but what a week.

[00:30:24] Joe Peters:: What a great time to be alive. Whether you’re Online or get to be here in anaheim. It was a just a fantastic week For our mops community and those of us that are passionate about some of the things that are advancing in in ai but all right, let’s move on to our final segment so today I wasn’t, I couldn’t fit my turntable and records into my suitcase.

[00:30:49] Joe Peters:: It’s maybe a little bit much to ask, but there was a song that came out in the last week that almost gives me goosebumps to talk about it. And and it’s the last Beatles song, now and then, which with the assistance of AI, they were able to take. Cassette that John Lennon had made and had a song that he had created.

[00:31:12] Joe Peters:: And for the longest time, it was very hard to use cassette technology to separate the voice. from the piano. Interesting. So it’s only recently that they were able to separate it and then be able to enhance it, clean it up, and then have Ringo and and Paul and, and George contribute to a final Beatles song.

[00:31:37] Joe Peters:: And it is. exceptional in many ways, but also I think a beautiful way of having AI give us something that we We thought we had lost or would never have access to before. And so I know a lot of people are really nervous about what AI generated music is going to be in the future and all of those things.

[00:32:01] Joe Peters:: But I think this is such a beautiful story and a, just a beautiful song as well. So if you get a chance at the end of the of this episode of launch codes, we’ll have a little segment for you to hear that, that track now and then, but I really encourage you to have a listen to it. And it is. It is a really powerful thing to behold.

[00:32:22] Joe Peters:: And so, what are you pairing for us? Well, it should be the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, but it’s not. So, what is our pairing this week, Andy?

[00:32:31] Andy Caron:: I did that as a teaser for the last episode, because it was just so top of mind at the moment. And right now I am circling back in a book that was written a number of years ago.

[00:32:40] Andy Caron:: I’ve read it several times. Each time I read it, I take something new away from it. So Tim Wu, fantastic author. It is nonfiction and it is his book, The Master Switch. So it’s the rise and fall of information empires. And it was written with sort of a view on the internet and what would come based on His exploration of other information empires.

[00:33:04] Andy Caron:: So it starts with electronic or electricity telephony then goes into radio movies and then television. And it looks at how the technology develops. How it becomes this very open source, anybody can play with it thing, and then it goes into a closed source system. And so this, against the lens of where we are right now with AI for me, is really an interesting treatise on what we potentially might be looking at as far as open now than to close, or is that not going to follow that same paradigm in the same way that the internet has not?

[00:33:42] Andy Caron:: Yeah.

[00:33:43] Joe Peters:: Well, it’s, we have a lot to learn from history, right? Always. We have to. We have to remember that we’re, what we’re entering uncharted waters, there’s a lot of lessons from the past that we should be acknowledging and thinking through. Yeah, so

[00:33:56] Andy Caron:: this is a fantastic book and it, it has a great, the, the voice within it, Tim’s voice is, is very present and he is a wonderful storyteller.

[00:34:06] Andy Caron:: He weaves it together in a way where it almost feels as if you’re reading fiction in that sense of kind of having that, That that narrative and through point that gives you that really truly dynamic story fantastic book I everything I do is on audible these days But this is one of my very first audible books way back in the day I’ve listened to it multiple times introduced my husband to it.

[00:34:28] Andy Caron:: He loved it I I have bought copies of this book for people. It’s a favorite. So definitely I think right now It’s top of mind for me to go back and read it again because I think it’s timely Well, I have

[00:34:39] Joe Peters:: some long flights to get through over the next little while, so I might download it and have a listen, but that’s, that’s great.

[00:34:46] Joe Peters:: All right, well, that’s it for this episode of Launch Codes. Thanks for listening. Be sure to subscribe, rate, and review. You can find us on Spotify, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Google Podcasts, and stay connected with us on LinkedIn by joining our newsletter in the link in the description of the show.

[00:35:06] Joe Peters:: And, as always, thanks, Mom, for watching. Thanks a lot, Andy.

[Episode 8] Trust Issues & Privacy Concerns

Episode 8 of Launch Codes is here! Matt Tonkin, RP’s VP of Consulting & Partnerships, joins Joe to crack the code on trust issues and privacy concerns.

Here’s what we’re talking about this week:


Listen Below


Episode Summary

Google tackles image trust issues with new features

A 2023 Poynter study revealed that 70% of people are not confident in their ability to tell when online images are authentic and reliable.

Matt pointed out that he’s impressed that 70% of people are willing to admit they are not confident in identifying authenticity. He went on to say “this number is when they’re actively polled. How many are thinking about that when they’re scrolling through social media?”

In an effort to combat disinformation, Google announced three new ways to check images and sources online last week.

  1. About This Image: Gives history of image and how websites use it.
  2. Fact Check Explorer: Gives journalists and fact-checkers a way to learn about image/topic.
  3. Search Generative Explorer: Gives AI-summarized descriptions of sources.

This is a good step forward for brand controlled in Joe’s opinion. He referenced the early days of Midjourney when images of the Pope wearing a Balenciaga parka went viral and how this technology can help protect brands from maleficent acts.

But there’s also a larger concern outside of brands, with international crises or election coverage, that these tools don’t address. The ability to quickly and easily check facts was critical when the 24-hour news cycle was first introduced. Now with the rise of news consumption through social media, paired with AI imagery and video, it’s of paramount concern.

“There needs to be a bit of time [for these tools to provide value],” Matt said. “That time is longer than it takes for a post to be on Instagram or TikTok.” If there’s a million views before content is fact checked, then the guardrails do not work.


Artists use Nightshade to derail AI image recognition

A new digital tool known as ‘Nightshade’ is enabling artists to protect their work from being scraped into AI training sets.

The tool manipulates images at the pixel level. Once enough distorted images are used to train AI, the entire model starts to break down and misread images.

For example, Stable Diffusion XL started misinterpreting the prompt for “dog” after just 50 images and outputs cats. Other examples included cars becoming cows, hats become cakes and handbags become toasters.

It could require hundreds or thousands of images to create these hallucinations, depending on the size of the AI model.

Developed by Ben Zhao, a professor at the University of Chicago, Zhao’s team also developed Glaze, a tool for artists to “mask” their own personal styles.

Joe and Matt both feel it will be challenging for artists to compete with artistic copyright. Developers of LLMs will look for ways to defeat this type of tool. “I do like the conversation its starting and feel it’s part of the short term battle for copyright protection,” said Joe. “It’s going to be an uphill battle and I think they’re going to have a lot of trouble… to protect their images.”

Perhaps painting will have a resurgence to give artists the ability to protect their work.


Can LinkedIn connections become career critics?

This week’s question from the Slack Channel (used with permission from the founder, Mike Rizzo) is: “Do you have any experience with a potential new employer seeking feedback from a mutual connection on LinkedIn without your consent?”

It can feel uncomfortable for a potential employer to reach out to someone who was not on your list of approved references. Matt points out that “it doesn’t have to be a one-way street.” When Matt was interviewing with RP, he reached out to a former consultant to understand their experience.

Matt also suggested taking preemptive steps by doing research on the company and determine who your direct manager would be, then vet potential mutual connections.


Hot takes



This week, Joe brought in Mavis Staples’ self-titled debut solo album, with the track Security, a fitting song for this week’s topics. Matt brought in “Lady Friend” an IPA from Elora Brewing. It’s a malty beer which is balanced by hop notes and a pleasantly bitter finish.


Read The Transcript

Disclaimer: This transcript was created by AI using Descript and has not been edited.

[00:00:00] Joe Peters: Welcome to episode eight. I’m your host, Joe Peters. On today’s episode, Google sharpens their focus on image trust issues. Nightshade poisons AI image recognition. We have a community question about LinkedIn connections and the connection between career critics. And then we have some hot takes on new Ray Ban smart glasses, the Brits letting their royal guard down on cyber security.

[00:00:31] Joe Peters: And Marketo writing a new chapter for their program reference library. Today I’m joined by Matt Tonkin. Happy Halloween, Matt. Happy Halloween, Joe. What are you excited to discuss this week? So,

[00:00:44] Matt Tonkin: from just a pure pun value, the nightshade poisons AI, I think you know, that really hit it out of the park for me.

[00:00:52] Matt Tonkin: But just from being a glasses wearer myself, I think I want to hear about this Ray Ban smart glasses and see, see how much better my life can be or, or not be.

[00:01:03] Joe Peters: Well, I, I, I hear that well, there’s like two phases of this, but let’s not scoop that segment. We’ll get to that in a minute. Okay, so our first topic today is about a 2023 pointer study that revealed that 70 percent of people are not confident in their ability to tell when online images are authentic and reliable.

[00:01:27] Joe Peters: And so Google is offering three new ways to check images and sources online. One, it allows you to fact check this image, so that gives you history of the image and how websites use it. Second, it has a fact check explorer, which gives journalists and fact checkers a way to learn about the image or topic.

[00:01:47] Joe Peters: And then finally, this search generative explorer, which gives AI summarized descriptions of sources. So, Matt, I think, you know, we’re in this new era deepfakes.

[00:02:03] Joe Peters: What do you think this means for brands? And what do you think it means for a broader society?

[00:02:10] Matt Tonkin: Yeah, well, first off, I’m actually somewhat impressed that 70, 70 percent of people are, are not confident, admit that, right? Like That to me is, that’s something that people are understanding. Like, yes, I’m bad at this.

[00:02:23] Matt Tonkin: I think one thing though, that jumps out to me is this is 70 percent saying that when they’re being polled and specifically asked about that, how many are actively thinking about that while they’re scrolling through, you know, right, right. From, from a brand’s perspective, I mean, There’s a few good things, right?

[00:02:39] Matt Tonkin: Like, I think imagine brands looking for stock images for their you know, products and stuff and wanting to, you know, not use maybe something that’s just generic and AI generated that gives them an option to see, you know, where is this actually coming from? If we’re just buying it from, you know, a stock image place.

[00:02:58] Matt Tonkin: I think having that there’s a lot of ability to sort of Take more control in what you’re using. And have that again, you’re just trusting what Google’s providing. So it’s not always going to be perfect, but there’s a bit more source.

[00:03:14] Joe Peters: Well, I, I think one of the things that I worry about for brands are kind of misappropriation of the brand.

[00:03:21] Joe Peters: So I think back to one of those first mid journey, mind blowing images where the pope was in like Balenciaga inspired parka. Yeah. And You know, I think there are some things that could be on the negative side of brands and so quickly and easily generated. Now obviously there are content guardrails on some of these systems for generating imagery, but Obviously, there’s going to be ways to defeat that or ways to manipulate it.

[00:03:54] Joe Peters: So I really feel like we’re going to have a real challenge now in ensuring that this is an authentic experience an image that we’re consuming. And I think our default question for ourselves has to be, Hey. Is this image real or not? Every time we’re looking at something that kind of piques our interest and and questions like, Oh, wow, this is pretty crazy stuff.

[00:04:21] Joe Peters: And then is that real or not?

[00:04:23] Matt Tonkin: My, my go to when I’m talking with, you know, friends and family about this or anything you see online, whether it’s a, about a generation or not is if it makes you have an emotional response, good or bad. Think about why you’re having that response and, and always go with the assumption that everything’s fake.

[00:04:40] Matt Tonkin: But it’s funny when you, when you mentioned, you know, brands and, and how they’re being represented. What triggered for me, and I think any Canadian of a certain generation will have this memory is the house hippo. Which, if you don’t know about the North American House Hippo, it was a PSA back, I can’t remember exactly when it was running, but it’s done up like a Animal Planet Discovery Channel animal documentary, right?

[00:05:07] Matt Tonkin: And it’s this little hippo that’s running around a house, building nests out of lint and all this stuff, and it looks really the takeaway at the end of the commercial is that, you know, this looked really real, right? But you knew it wasn’t, so you need to be careful about what you’re seeing on TV and understand that it’s not always real.

[00:05:26] Matt Tonkin: And I think this is sort of leading us towards like, what’s this generation’s house hippo? How do we, how do we put it in the back of people’s minds? Like, be aware of, you know, how these are being made. Be aware of what might. You know, be false for some sort of agenda or something like that, or just in general.

[00:05:47] Matt Tonkin: Yeah,

[00:05:48] Joe Peters: I, I think I’ve never, I’ve actually never heard of the House Hippo. So that’s what

[00:05:53] Matt Tonkin: Joe, I guess maybe there is a, no, I won’t. I won’t say there’s a, I won’t say there’s a generation, but I knew where

[00:06:00] Joe Peters: you’re going.

[00:06:03] Matt Tonkin: Okay. And yourself and anyone else get, just go type house hippo into Google and it’ll come up cause you really
need to experience it.

[00:06:12] Matt Tonkin: That’s

[00:06:13] Joe Peters: hilarious. Okay. Well, I think when, when I start to see the challenges that we’re going to be facing, like, so we’re seeing a lot of things happening in kind of the Middle East right now with. The Israel Palestine conflict with, you know, what is the real image? What is not what was from a previous

[00:06:32] Joe Peters: All that fact checking is, is super, super concerning. You saw that fake Tucker Carlson segment with Elon Musk, I think we’re in for real nightmare moving into, I’m going to say election season. Not only in the U. S., but also Canadian elections coming up with being able to determine In relatively quick order how to stop fake content from, I’m going to say, poisoning the minds of the electorate.

[00:07:08] Joe Peters: And I think, I actually don’t know how we’re going to combat.

[00:07:14] Matt Tonkin: That’s, that’s a great point because if you think about those three offerings, they all still feel like a, there needs to be a bit of time for those to be figured out, right? Like, about this image even if it’s being done really quickly. Or fact checking, there’s a time, right?

[00:07:30] Matt Tonkin: And that time is longer than it takes for a post to be put on TikTok or Facebook or Instagram, right? So, it doesn’t matter if you can fact check it after the fact and say, Oh yeah, no, this is wrong, because everyone already saw it, and they don’t.

[00:07:44] Joe Peters: Exactly, if there’s a million views before it’s fact checked, or this presupposes that someone wants to fact check, Right?

[00:07:52] Joe Peters: You’re just scrolling through your X feed and seeing things. Who knows, right? Who knows what you’re consuming and whether it’s real or not. So I think we’re in for a bit of the Wild West in terms of manipulation and and deep fakes taking hold. And we’re going to collectively as a society have to just question almost Everything that we’re consuming and I think your, your, your idea of if I have an emotional response or trigger for this, I need to understand if this is real, right?

[00:08:28] Joe Peters: Well, let’s, let’s move along to our second topic here on your, your favorite topic especially for with Halloween coming up is artists using nightshade to derail AI image recognition. So. This new tool is enabling artists to protect their work from being scraped into AI training sets. And it manipulates images at the pixel level, and once enough distorted images are used to train AI, the entire model starts to break down and misread images.

[00:09:04] Joe Peters: So, for example, Stable Diffusion started misinterpreting the prompt for dog just after 50 images. And I think this is helpful and a tool for artists to master their own personal style. But it could take hundreds of thousands of the

[00:09:28] Joe Peters: hallucinations that we’re looking for, or they want to achieve, depending on the size of the AI model. So, what do you think about this new battleground for protecting artistic copyright?

[00:09:42] Matt Tonkin: The funny thing is, I’m not sure it’s a new battleground, it’s new in the sense of against AI, but right, this isn’t, this isn’t anything different than what we’ve seen for years, think back to artists trying to prevent, you know, peer to peer sharing of songs and that sort of thing, and how, you know, yes Napster went away, but then LimeWire and a hundred others pop up.

[00:10:05] Matt Tonkin: And I think anytime you’re, you’re developing tools to prevent something, you’re already behind, right? You’re playing catch up because as soon as you develop something to block it. And I mean, the solution, at least, well, not solution, but You really didn’t see that first drop off in piracy until iTunes and Netflix right, where you’re giving a legal way to get people want because they’ll get it.

[00:10:31] Matt Tonkin: So, so I don’t know if there is that sort of parody, but I think even now you’re seeing piracy start to trend up again because, you know, there’s 30 streaming platforms and I don’t know which ones I want. So I just want what I want to watch simply and that’s the same thing here. I just want. To produce this image simply and somehow you’re going to get it done.

[00:10:51] Matt Tonkin: So it’s, it’s interesting. I think it’s a cool tool, but you’re, I think you’re always fighting an uphill battle if you’re trying to prevent something.

[00:10:59] Joe Peters: Yeah, I think, I think you’re right there about the uphill battle and where I see. You know, the process that these scraping mechanisms are going to sort of create their own next salvo of, or volley of of shots in this battle is, they’re going to scan to check before ingestion, and then it kind of defeats this.

[00:11:27] Joe Peters: So. I, I do, I do like the conversation that this is starting, and I do feel like this is a short term part of the, of this battle for copyright protection. But I think it’s going to be an uphill battle, and I think there are going to have a lot of trouble. Mm-Hmm. being able to stop accomplish what they’re trying to accomplish.

[00:11:52] Joe Peters: Yeah. Which is the protection of their, their images.

[00:11:56] Matt Tonkin: Yeah, I think you’re right. There needs to be, you’re not going to win the battle. I don’t think so there, it needs to be more collaborative and how you do that. Yeah. And I think

[00:12:07] Joe Peters: photographs and digital art are going to be challenges to maintain artistic copyright.

[00:12:14] Joe Peters: And it’s almost like we’re going to go old school a little bit. Painting is going to be, have a resurgence because that’s something that you’re going to be able to, you can maintain some protection on, but that’s a topic for another, another, another day. All right. I love this community question we have today and really, really interesting.

[00:12:40] Joe Peters: And to be honest, as an employer, I’ve never. Come across this as a process that we would necessarily use, but do you have the question is, do you have any experience with a potential new employer seeking feedback from a mutual connection on linkedin without your consent?

[00:13:01] Matt Tonkin: Yeah, that’s an interesting one because yeah, it doesn’t, it doesn’t shock me.

[00:13:06] Matt Tonkin: And I think I know myself personally. I’m, if I’m interviewing someone, I’m, I’m going to go on linkedin and look them up. So, I think if you see that you have a mutual connection, it would naturally be sort of the first on your mind is like, Oh, I can actually hear from someone else what this person’s like if they’re, if what their resume says is an accurate representation of what they’re doing.

[00:13:28] Matt Tonkin: So it seems. Sort of logical and kind of the, the part of LinkedIn, what I’d say is, you know, that doesn’t have to be a one way street. I know when I was coming here, Joe, I, I reached out to a former consultant from RP and I asked him, you know, what’s it like here? So I think, I think it’s a tool that can go both ways.

[00:13:45] Matt Tonkin: I definitely don’t think it would be, you know, out of, out of out of reason. You need to think about, like, who you have on your LinkedIn, and you can see that too. You can, you can go through, you’ll have an idea, I think, of who is going to be interviewing you, who would be your manager if you’re doing the research.

[00:14:01] Matt Tonkin: And you can see, do I have mutual connections with them? Is that mutual connection someone I want to have with them? And maybe take some preemptive steps before you go through the process, right? Well, I think

[00:14:13] Joe Peters: that that is probably the only solution. If you think someone from your, you may have to do a scan of your connections.

[00:14:22] Joe Peters: And just decide, Hey, maybe Bob Bob didn’t like that. I got the promotion over, over him. And maybe he has a bit of an ax to grind and maybe I shouldn’t be connected with Bob anymore. I don’t know, Matt. Like that’s, that’s, yeah, it’s going

[00:14:38] Matt Tonkin: to be a bit of a challenge. I mean, it’s tough because the whole concept of LinkedIn is you want to expand your network and expand your network.

[00:14:44] Matt Tonkin: So you probably never think of it. Like, is this a good person to have in here? Like, is this someone who’s going to give me good feedback if we have mutual connections? Yeah, I definitely think, well, and I know personally being in like the Marketo world there’s always everyone knows everyone. So it’s changed a bit in RevOps in general.

[00:15:06] Matt Tonkin: And I don’t think that’s industry specific. It’s probably true of a lot of industries where there’s tight knit networks and. Everyone knows everyone. So you kind of do have to have that rapport with people.

[00:15:22] Joe Peters: I think you’re right. I think you’re right. This is a, this is a hard one, but it’s a reality. And it’s kind of like probably taking a little shot at the reference check process, knowing that you’re generally not going to give references that aren’t going to give you a good reference.

[00:15:42] Joe Peters: Yeah. Right. And if you have, then that’s a little odd. But this is this is a approach of sort of checking that reference check process with with connections and relationships, which I think is which is a natural part of this.

[00:15:59] Matt Tonkin: So And I think, I mean, the good news is if, if you have good relationships and you have people on your LinkedIn that your work really spoke to them and they can talk well for you, I think someone that you didn’t provide is going to be a much better reference than someone you did provide just because of what you said.

[00:16:19] Matt Tonkin: If I reached out to, if I’m hiring someone and I reached out to a connection of theirs and they said this person is great, they’re great at their job, great to work with, I’m taking that a lot more seriously then. You know, the names that the three names I get and a piece of paper at the resume.

[00:16:34] Joe Peters: Yeah, I think you’re right, Matt.

[00:16:36] Joe Peters: I think you’re right. So it’s a little bit of a reality check. And this is just where we’re at for our community member here. But

[00:16:46] Matt Tonkin: anyway. I think it’s, I think it’d be frowned upon if someone’s going on your link or your Instagram and finding your like family and close friends and asking you about that.

[00:16:55] Matt Tonkin: That’s definitely going a step far. But I think the purpose of linkedin is to curate a network that you get along with and you work well with.

[00:17:04] Joe Peters: Yeah, that I think you’re right. Although I do know that some employers are doing those thorough scans of socials with new employees and, and double checking everything there.

[00:17:18] Joe Peters: So, yes, what a, what an interesting time we’re in here where you don’t really get to control the process either as an employer or as a potential employee. Maybe it goes both ways, so you just have to kind of… Look, I think you have to expect that this is going to happen. Alright, well let’s move on here.

[00:17:43] Joe Peters: And first, I’d like to thank our friends at Knack for sponsoring today’s episode. Knack is the no code platform that allows you to build campaigns in minutes. Get AI powered translations in up to 75 languages in just minutes. Visit knack. com to learn more. That’s K N A K.

[00:18:05] Joe Peters: So now we’ll shift into our hot takes segment. We have some great ones here, Matt. And as a glasses wearer, I mean, I have contacts on now, but

[00:18:17] Matt Tonkin: you, you were I’m just saying, I switch back and forth, depending on the day. But

[00:18:22] Joe Peters: these new Ray Ban Meta Smart Glasses have been introduced. And actually a colleague of ours, Pierce, has a pair already.

[00:18:31] Joe Peters: It has five built in microphones. Captures audio, video, and still images. Has a 12 megapixel camera. And shoots up to 60 seconds of 1080p video. It has good stabilization, so you don’t get motion sick with the, you know, the head moving, taking the shot. You can live stream to Facebook or Instagram.

[00:18:55] Joe Peters: So, obviously, it’s tethered to your phone. And there’s a voice assistant that allows you to listen to text, take hand free photos and videos, and send messages. So… And then there’s an AI augmented part coming in the future where you can kind of look at, I don’t know, a monument or a building and ask it what it is.

[00:19:17] Joe Peters: Oh, that’s cool. So, what do you, what do you think about this? I think privacy, it’s another new era part of the
era of declining privacy with pretty much every single day we go out into the

[00:19:35] Matt Tonkin: world. Yep. So, it’s funny what hop, what jumped out to me when I was thinking about this, because I’m like thinking, Oh, this is cool.

[00:19:42] Matt Tonkin: Like I just replaced these. But if you remember the last time I was on the podcast, we talked about the pendant that records everything as you go around and I. And I can say this, I felt a lot more hesitant about that pendant, like I could feel that emotionally I responded different to this, and I don’t know why, because there’s a lot of similarities, right?

[00:20:03] Matt Tonkin: I mean, there’s more video being captured, there’s video being captured, not just audio so I’m wondering if that’s just a brand recognition thing, and I mean, I’m wearing Ray Ban, so it’s probably partly mental there, right? But you’re, that, that privacy thing we’re going around, and you’re taking video, so out in public People are now being captured.

[00:20:22] Matt Tonkin: And I mean, that’s true. Anyone on their phone could just be taking videos of anyone out there. But I think it’s different when there’s sort of that visual visual indicator that, okay, someone’s got their phone up, like they could be taking video versus someone just wearing glasses. So that’s, you know, that’s an interesting thing.

[00:20:40] Matt Tonkin: I’m not, I’m not sure how I feel about that. Yeah,

[00:20:44] Joe Peters: I, I, there’s so many layers to this. I actually think there’s a bit of a risk for Ray Ban at this point in doing this. There could be a bit of a backlash. You could see it. Oh, that guy’s wearing Ray Bans,

[00:21:01] Matt Tonkin: a bit creepy Oh, great. I got to change my glasses.

[00:21:06] Matt Tonkin: Well, well,

[00:21:07] Joe Peters: those are the sunglasses. I know. I know. They’re also sunglasses. Oh, there’s a, okay. Okay. I’m pretty sure they’re sunglasses, but I might be wrong, but I’m pretty sure they are, but I think we’re. I find this interesting is We’re, we’re, we’re getting into this period where we’re going to start to see augmentation of our capacity and abilities.

[00:21:32] Joe Peters: And I think this is just another step forward in that in terms of the integrated or add on to ourselves by technology and augmenting ourselves in different ways. And you know, this isn’t the merge between, you know, where we’re having AI connected right into our. Into our brains, but, but there, there is a path along here a little bit.

[00:21:57] Joe Peters: That’s that’s. Stirring for us to, to see. And you know, you could see that there would be some, are there competitive advantages that you could have with this type of

[00:22:09] Matt Tonkin: this type of, well, you can imagine just traveling Joe. You don’t need to have great understanding of different languages anymore.

[00:22:15] Matt Tonkin: If. If just in your field of vision, signs are being translated. If, you know, you can take in what someone’s saying and immediately have an English translation or whatever language translation. There’s suddenly, suddenly a whole new world literally opens up for you that you, you didn’t have there. So just simple, simple day to day things that don’t even get that far out of reality right now.
[00:22:39] Matt Tonkin: I mean, I can do that with my phone and hold up to a sign and it’ll translate. So it’s that progressive steps that, yeah, what, what’s going to be, what are these guys going to be doing in five years? Yeah, I

[00:22:51] Joe Peters: think you’re right. Like, imagine you’re walking around, you’re trying. Some old city that’s a maze, let’s say Barcelona, or, you know, and you have your sunglasses on and it’s kind of saying, Oh, to get back to your hotel, you take these types of, you take this route.

[00:23:10] Joe Peters: You’re navigating the the maze of alleys and, and being able to find your final destination. So I think this is, we’re just in the early days here, and you can only imagine there’s going to be a period not too far in our future where this is table stakes and every, everybody’s going to have this in some form, but all right, that was a bit longer than just a long, yeah, that got us, that got us fired up.

[00:23:42] Joe Peters: So this next one is around a cyber security. So one third of Brits admit they’ve given up following cyber security best practices. So new research from Thales of over 2000 UK city and citizens found an alarming level of consumer apathy when it came to keeping themselves safe online. This apathy is closely tied to feelings of confusion, futility, and information overload.

[00:24:12] Joe Peters: So, 51 percent struggled to grasp rapid advancements in technology and the implications on their own personal security. 22 percent admitted they had no clue about the significance of where in the world their data is stored. China, Russia, U. S. Wherever. 47% percent confess to signing TNCs without a thorough reading.

[00:24:39] Joe Peters: I think that’s a that’s that’s a

[00:24:40] Matt Tonkin: lie. That’s a straight. I, I’m moderately cyber security you know, conscious, I would say, and I, I’m so guilty of this. So yeah.

[00:24:53] Joe Peters: And 56 admitted they always accept cookies on websites due to it being an easy process or an easier process for them. So there’s a digital

[00:25:02] Matt Tonkin: marketer that that’s like, yay, but no,

[00:25:07] Joe Peters: but I think, you know,

[00:25:14] Joe Peters: And tying back to our, our last topic on privacy and that we’re in an era where it’s very, very difficult to be vigilant we’re continuously having our, our personal information violated. How many times do we now get that email from some business where they’re, they have to inform us that they’ve had a data breach in our information or passwords?

[00:25:44] Joe Peters: Or even some more important information, whether it’s social insurance numbers or social security numbers, we’re, we’re, we’re experiencing this. I’m not going to say every day, probably weekly and monthly at the bare minimum, where there’s some infringement on our personal information.

[00:26:08] Matt Tonkin: It’s so, I think it’s so commonplace to your point, like that it’s happening all the time in a lot of younger generations who are, you know, in the working.

[00:26:17] Matt Tonkin: World now that that’s been their whole life is, you know, just clicking. I accept these terms and going through that. And even older generations, it’s been most of their life, right? Where it’s just sort of become static in the background. And you okay, what’s an easy password? That sort of thing. I’m not having like good practices around that password one, that sort of thing.

[00:26:42] Joe Peters: No, it is, it is hard to be vigilant and it is I mean, I think of just the inundated nature of a phone call, not like just being the spam that you get on through the phone now is unbelievable. So I think where you stay strong friends is the message and you have to keep on thinking about. What you can do to to protect yourself and what are some of the, I feel really challenged for or feel really poorly for seniors today that have low technological literacy and are being manipulated all the time.

[00:27:34] Joe Peters: Right. And it’s very, very, very, very tricky and the AI is only going to get better and easier to do this. So we, we have to, we have to work together on trying to keep each other safe. All right, let’s move on to our last hot take this week from our friends at Mercado, and they’ve revamped the program reference library and part of the September 2023 release there’s allowing users to import example programs.

[00:28:05] Joe Peters: So whether that’s email engagement, event scoring, deliverability and operational programs. This is all part of the Marketo revamped program reference library. What are your thoughts on this,

[00:28:19] Matt Tonkin: Matt? Yeah, and this has always been something that Marketo’s kind of had. I think a lot of people don’t realize that there’s sort of these template programs that you can pull into Marketo.
[00:28:29] Matt Tonkin: Maybe I’m a little jaded from my past experience with it, but I never felt that they were, you know, great. But for, you know, a new user to Marketo, someone who doesn’t have a lot of experience, they’re, they’re programs that are set up. In a way that works in a way that Marketo was structured to make use of.

[00:28:46] Matt Tonkin: So it’s great for getting your bearings on how these things could be structured. The problem is, is Marketo has to build these for every all of their customers, right? They have to be a single program that’s going to work for manufacturing for financial services for SAS companies. And what that means is they don’t really work for any of them, at least not in a way that.

[00:29:08] Matt Tonkin: is beneficial if you have customizations that you need. So I really look at these as sort of a base building block and use them to understand, especially if you’re new, but you’re going to want to customize eventually, whether that’s building onto these base programs or, you know, building these out and making programs that work for you.

[00:29:27] Matt Tonkin: So. It’s great that they’re, you know, trying to get a bit more of this user friendliness involved, I think but I think there’s still room to go there.

[00:29:35] Joe Peters: Yeah, just more Lego in the Lego box that you can take and build with, right? Yeah, I mean, the

[00:29:43] Matt Tonkin: benefit of Marketo is that it’s completely customizable. So having a cookie cutter program isn’t why you get Marketo anyway.

[00:29:52] Joe Peters: All right, well. Let’s move on to our pairing segment. So this week we have a great album from Mavis Staples and it’s a self titled debut album from 1969. And so just for, for, for our listeners. We’re putting the audio at the end of the podcast so you can sort of listen to it without having our voices

[00:30:22] Matt Tonkin: over top of it

[00:30:23] Joe Peters: or Matt opening a beverage and disrupting the vibe so you’re able to hear.

[00:30:29] Joe Peters: The, the track right at the end and the, the song that we’re, or the track that we’re so showcasing is called security, which I think is funny based on our theme this week, but then the second reason we’re showcasing it is this vinyl. For those of you that are watching the video version, it’s orange and black.

[00:30:54] Joe Peters: It’s Halloween today, so I thought this was a perfect, perfect choice for us to have this weekend. You know, it is, it’s just a, it’s an incredible album and I feel like I’m in a Real funk and soul exploration phase right now. Like I actually can’t get enough. I, I, I find this, the, the, it’s so rich and the albums are so strong.

[00:31:19] Joe Peters: And so this may, this staples one actually it’s a lot of familiar tracks, even if you put it on, there’d be. Be songs that are just part of our, our, our, our cultural backdrop. Son of a preacher man is on this album, which if you’ve, if you’re a fan of Pulp Fiction and the soundtrack from that film.

[00:31:40] Joe Peters: That is it’s one of the key tracks from that, from that movie. But anyway, how are we going to pair a beverage with Mavis Staples

[00:31:52] Matt Tonkin: this week? Okay. So I will say I had a plan, Joe, that, that fell through, unfortunately, I initially, so a few weeks ago I got to announce that I am, I’ve joined the executive team at RPM.

[00:32:04] Matt Tonkin: I’m, I’m vice president. So, so what I had intended to do was if you’ve ever been to the Dominican Republic. The beer that’s around everywhere there is Presidante. I was hoping I could maybe get one of those so I could have a cup of coffee. Turns out it’s really hard to import that into Canada. So that fell through unfortunately for me.

[00:32:24] Matt Tonkin: So, oh yeah, there we go. What I have this week, it’s, it’s a local to my actual like local in town brewery. I’m in a small town, so we’ve just got the one. It is lady friend IPA from a Laura brewing company. Just a, a really good it’s one that I think it used to be sort of their fall IPA release, so it reminds me nicely, like.

[00:32:46] Matt Tonkin: Well I say fall, but there’s snow on the ground for me right now. So maybe we skipped that. But that’s what it feels like for me as a nice fall fall IPA. It’s sort of a, another go to for me. So I’m happy with it.

[00:32:57] Joe Peters: And it goes along with Mavis, our lady friend today as our, as it is, that’s a great pairing, great pairing that we have this week.

[00:33:06] Joe Peters: So that’s that’s pretty, that’s pretty fun. Alright, so, I think that’s it for this week, Matt. Thanks for, for joining me, and thanks to our listeners. Be sure to subscribe, rate, and review. You can find us on Spotify, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Google Podcasts. And stay connected with us on LinkedIn or by joining our newsletter using the link in the description.

[00:33:33] Joe Peters: And thanks, Mom, for watching, as always. Have a great week.