This week on Launch Codes, we’re thrilled to debut a new segment called “AI Navigators.” In every episode, we’ll focus on a different element of AI, helping marketing ops professionals through the challenges and opportunities it presents. In our 12th episode, Joe is joined by Andy Caron, President of RP, for an in-depth discussion on:


Listen below


The drama continues at OpenAI

We recorded last week’s episode around 9am on Monday. At that time, OpenAI CEO and co-founder Sam Altman had been fired and was moving to Microsoft. By the time we’d published that episode on Tuesday, the landscape was completely different.

On Tuesday, November 21st, the whole team at OpenAI was threatening to quit and then by Wednesday, November 22nd, OpenAI announced that Sam Altman would return as CEO, along with a new board and Greg Brockman as president.

Joe and Andy discussed the chaotic and uncertain nature of the AI industry, highlighting the disorganized thought process surrounding AI’s direction and governance.

They also touched on the significant transformation in OpenAI’s governance, moving from a non-profit to a more technologically mature board structure.

This shift aims to stabilize the leading technology in the space, emphasizing the importance of avoiding flakiness and ensuring a focused, effective approach.

Joe and Andy left with a hopeful outlook, suggesting that these recent changes might mark the end of a turbulent chapter and the beginning of a more structured and promising future in AI development.


5 ways MOPs can elevate campaign planning

As companies plan for 2024, MOPs teams should take the opportunity to get noticed as potential game changers. These tips come from Megan Michuda at

While it may be a bit late in the year for marketing ops to influence annual campaign strategies, these tips are valuable throughout the year.

Andy emphasized the importance of MOPs being proactive in creating these plans and adapting to market shifts. She noted the critical role of MOPs in leveraging data for strategic planning and ensuring data accuracy for future analysis.

“Our market has shifted so dramatically over the last several years on even a monthly, if not quarterly basis,” Andy said. “And so having that plan for how do we recalibrate, how do we think about modifying what we’ve set, not in stone, but sort of prepared for that process and know that that is part of the plan.”

Joe stressed the need for MOPs to think strategically and align their contributions with the organization’s overall objectives and key results (OKRs), saying “We get enveloped in this world of execution and operations… but thinking strategically about how MOPs can ladder up where you contribute to the OKRs and how you’re adjusting throughout the year is super important.” Remember to use data in a strategic way to support decision-making.


Track a lead using Acquisition Program vs. lead source

This week’s question from the Slack Channel (used with permission from the founder, Mike Rizzo) is: “Does anyone actually use Acquisition Program in Marketo? If our business uses lead source, would that be sufficient?”

If your business is using lead source and that is sufficient for you, you may or may not want to take the time to use Acquisition Program.

Andy explained that while Acquisition Program is automatically set when a Marketo landing page is used, it requires additional steps to set up if using a global form or a non-local landing page. She highlights that Acquisition Program, being program-specific, offers detailed insights into what content is effectively driving form submissions, which complements the broader view provided by lead source about how people are reaching the content.

When paired with lead source, Acquisition Program can actually be quite powerful. Here’s an example: Someone came in via LinkedIn or via Google search. That’s going to tell you how people are getting to your content. But the Acquisition Program is going to tell you what content is actually getting that form fill for the first time.

If you still aren’t sure, err on the side of creating more data that could be useful in the future, rather than regretting not having it when needed.


AI Navigators

We teased a new segment at the beginning of this post. It’s aimed at helping MOPs navigate the challenges and opportunities presented by AI.

One of Joe’s inspirations for starting this segment came from an experience he had at MOPs-Apalooza.

He was on a panel about AI and the future of marketing ops. The moderator asked the audience if anyone had AI guidelines within their organization — and the only hands Joe saw raised were from the RP team.

This lead Joe to create a template for AI Guidelines and Principles that you can download (and it’s ungated).

The template is divided into three sections, focusing on different AI use philosophies in organizations: open use, moderate restrictions, and high control environments. He emphasizes the importance of organizations identifying where they fit on this continuum and establishing guidelines to ensure everyone is aligned on AI usage.

Many organizations haven’t yet considered the implications of AI use, especially regarding data privacy and security risks. Andy also stressed the balance between AI and the human element, advocating for a human-centered approach that augments rather than replaces human decision-making.


Hot Takes

  • What are the MOPs skills of 2024?
    • Joe and Andy discuss Sara McNamara’s list of the best B2B MOPs skills for 2024
  • Amazon is launching AI school
    • Amazon aims to train two million people in AI as fight for skilled workers ramps up with Microsoft and Google. Workers with AI skills have the potential to earn up to 47% more in salaries.
  • Doom scrolling: It’s time to log off
    • People are ingesting too much negative news and psychology experts say it’s causing people to spiral and can exacerbate anxiety, and depression. Joe and Andy dove into how people in MOPs, and the wider population, can protect themselves from experiencing these situations.



In “Pairings” this week, Andy and Joe delve into the intersection of music and literature. Joe shared a favorite album from The Strokes called “Room on Fire,” drawing parallels between its tracks and the recent developments in AI. He highlighted songs like “Between Love and Hate” and “Automatic Stop” as reflective of the AI industry’s current state, ultimately selecting “Reptilia” for its irresistible hook.

Meanwhile, Andy took us into the realm of science fiction with Dennis E. Taylor’s “We Are Legion (We Are Bob),” the first book in the Bobiverse series. This intriguing novel explores the concept of a self-replicating spaceship navigated by a human consciousness, leading to philosophical questions about identity, replication, and the nature of consciousness itself. Andy’s enthusiasm for the audiobook version adds another layer to this recommendation. Join us as we explore these creative realms in “Pairings,” where music and literature come together to enrich our understanding of the world.


Read the transcript

Disclaimer: This transcript was created by AI using Descript and has not been edited.

[00:00:00] Joe Peters: Welcome to Launch Codes, the podcast about marketing operations, artificial intelligence, and more. Each week, you’ll hear from experts as they share insights, stories, and strategies. Welcome to Episode 12. I’m your host, Joe Peters. On today’s episode, we’ll the curtains close on OpenAI’s latest drama, how mops can take center stage for campaign planning, A community question, hot on the trail, what’s the best way to track a lead?

[00:00:34] Joe Peters: We’re introducing a new weekly segment called AI Navigators, and Hot Takes, marketing op skills that mope indoors, class in session, Amazon announces a school for AI, and Unplugged to Unwind, cutting the cord on negative news. Today I’m joined by Andi. Good morning, Andi. Good morning, Joe. What are you excited about talking about today?

[00:01:02] Andy Caron: I am really excited about this idea of a school around AI. I think that’s really cool. I’m definitely interested in what we’re looking at with this open AI drama, if that’s going to be going away. And finally, I’m always interested in talking about It’s balance and mental health. So that sort of unplugged to unwind theme is one that I’m, I’m keen to chat about as well.

[00:01:29] Joe Peters: Yeah, we, we’re trying to do a lot of that work here at RP as well. So that’s something that really hits home. That’s for sure. So let’s move into their first topic on the drama continuing at OpenAI. Mercifully and thankfully, Sam Altman is returning to OpenAI as CEO along with President Greg Brockman. The deal also includes some new board members.

[00:01:57] Joe Peters: And so last week when we recorded things at 9am on Monday, November 20th, everything was up in the air. The whole team was quitting on Monday sorry, Tuesday, November 21st. And then by Wednesday, we kind of came full circle, and there’s a return with a new board, and there’s a whole series of rumors around why this happened.

[00:02:26] Joe Peters: Andy, what’s your take on the drama, and how, how do we sort of move on from here, I guess? I

[00:02:39] Andy Caron: think this just is a wonderful tableau of just how all over the place everyone is with AI, right? Is it up? Is it down? Is it sideways? We don’t know. We want these people. No, we don’t. We’re quitting. No, we’re not. I, I think the whole thing to me just perfectly illustrates actually in a nice little capsule how discombobulated we are around what to do with this, who should be doing it and what the primary focus should be and who should be focusing on those things.

[00:03:18] Andy Caron: I think it’s just all over the place and I think this is a perfect example that clearly articulates just how. a disorganized the entire thought process around it is.

[00:03:31] Joe Peters: It’s also, I’ll agree with you on that. There’s a lot for people to do individually and a lot for organizations to do. It is kind of oddly symptomatic, I think is not an unfair.

[00:03:48] Joe Peters: Term to or a call to make on this the board governance I think was the real shocker for me and understanding how the board was structured and how it wasn’t really equipped to move from being kind of that non profit structure Open AI in its, you know, original format kind of idea that this would be an open for all type of structure so Moving to this new model with a new board that’s maybe has a little bit of technological maturity.

[00:04:29] Joe Peters: I think can only serve us well because what we don’t want is flakiness by the leading technology in the space. It’s too important. Correct. Yeah, I agree. So hopefully we can just move on and that this is the end of a chapter or as Some people like to say the end of the first inning. So we have a long game ahead of us and hopefully we can just move on.

[00:04:59] Joe Peters: The, all the other rumors on what are the. Reasonings behind it. What is the technology development that could have triggered something? Is there something massive in terms of a leap forward in the capabilities of the AI? Who knows? Q Star idea could be an amazing new development if this sort of Unbridled learning and I’m going to say optimization kind of agent exists to be able to process and learn in real time, the optimal way of solving a problem or achieving a task.

[00:05:42] Joe Peters: You take that to stock trading, for example, or derivative trading or any of those things, a model like that unleashed could be super interesting, but that in and of itself, I don’t think is really what happened here. We had. Personality conflicts in a very oddly structured board that led to, I’m going to say, and I don’t think I’m stretching to say this, an amateur approach to letting go of a, of a CEO that in a way that probably did wasn’t, wasn’t justified from anything that we’re seeing.

[00:06:26] Andy Caron: That makes sense to me. I mean, I think at the end of the day. It’s also about where people with this level of intelligence feel valued. And if the value wasn’t being recognized, it doesn’t surprise me that he might have thought about stepping away as well.

[00:06:44] Joe Peters: Well, there’s, Sam Altman has a bright future no matter what he decides to do.

[00:06:50] Joe Peters: Indeed, right. And whether that was going to be at Microsoft or OpenAI. Right. I’m just happy that it’s resolved and maybe we can close this chapter and move on. But. It does, it does seem to be resolved and hopefully we won’t have to chat about this type of development and drama anymore. Why don’t we just switch gears and move to our next topic on five ways mobs can elevate the annual planning process.

[00:07:23] Joe Peters: And this came from Megan Mishuda at martech. org. And it was around the planning process for 2024 and how MOPS team take an opportunity to get noticed as game changers. And there was a couple of things here that I thought was really interesting in the article. One was the idea of building a planning template with business objective, key actions and reporting measurements.

[00:07:52] Joe Peters: Another one was around streamlining information flow, and then a couple of other areas around translating data into strategy, annualizing sorry, prioritizing the annual plan, and establishing a process for adjustments throughout the year. This, to me, Andy, just seems to be good thinking, good planning.

[00:08:14] Joe Peters: And good guidance for our colleagues and MOPS to kind of prepare and arm themselves to make a contribution not only to the planning process, to set a course for themselves for the next year.

[00:08:29] Andy Caron: I agree. I think the thing that I like about it most is encouraging MOPS to lean into and prepare for the creation of this plan before it’s asked of them at the 11th hour.

[00:08:42] Andy Caron: In a flurry of activity to produce it. Once marketing realizes that mops is holding the keys to the bulk of their performance and success data from the previous quarters and years. So in that proactivity, I think that this is wonderful. Number five is my favorite, the, the establishing a process for adjustments.

[00:09:06] Andy Caron: Our market has shifted so dramatically over the last several years on even a monthly, if not quarterly basis. And so we can talk about anticipated ROI, but if you’re using the same playbook that you were using for Q4 last year, assuming you’re on a fiscal based annual model, right, against the standard calendar, it’s not going to work.

[00:09:29] Andy Caron: It’s a completely different… And so having that plan for how do we recalibrate, how do we think about you know, modifying what we’ve set, not in stone, but sort of prepared for that process and know that that is part of the plan.

[00:09:47] Joe Peters: I couldn’t agree more. I think we’re sometimes our colleagues have their challenges is that we are marketing operations.

[00:09:58] Joe Peters: So we get. Enveloped in this world of execution and operations. It’s not, there’s no surprise there, but thinking strategically about how mobs can ladder up where you contribute to the OKRs and how you’re adjusting throughout the year is super important. And then the other area that I love is the idea of data to strategy.

[00:10:28] Joe Peters: As custodians of the data that is so important to leadership and. In terms of our marketing performance and execution data. This idea of laddering it up and thinking about it in a strategic way can only serve our MOPS colleagues better, right? Like, that should be a real focus.

[00:10:52] Andy Caron: Yes, I think streamlining the flow of that information, talking about, okay, what are we going to be?

[00:11:00] Andy Caron: Measuring against what’s the critical data for us to have and then where are we sourcing it and how are we interpreting it? I can’t tell you how many times I’ve sat down with a client and said, okay What are your if not OKRs and KPIs and what’s the data that you have to? provide benchmarking for that And we’ll go in and look at the field or fields that they’ve indicated and they’re, they’re not being consistently maintained, they’re 90 percent blank.

[00:11:28] Andy Caron: There’s not a strategy around how to even ensure that that data is there for future you to be able to interpret it. And so that I think is the other half of this is if we’re planning now, it also tells us what actions we need to be doing currently to ensure that the data is there later when we go to do the analysis.

[00:11:49] Joe Peters: 100%. So, this is great advice from from Megan and really something that everyone should be thinking about. We’re getting close to the very end of the fiscal year so there may or may not be a huge window to make the contribution to the next year’s plan. Regardless, having this thinking and taking a little bit of time to go through these types of questions can only serve you well.

[00:12:20] Joe Peters: Alright, well, let’s move on. To our question from the community and marketingops. com. Thanks for, for making this contribution this week. So our question is, does anyone actually use Acquisition Program in Marketo? If our biz uses LeadSource, would that be sufficient? So why don’t we start there,

[00:12:44] Andy Caron: Andy? Yeah.

[00:12:45] Andy Caron: Yeah. So Acquisition program is an interesting data point. It is set within the specific Marketo program where acquisition has occurred. Realistically, that may or may not always be the case. Sometimes it’s the marketing acquisition, but you purchased the lead three years ago and it was blank, so you filled it in.

[00:13:06] Andy Caron: I didn’t understand acquisition program for the first year that I had back in 2012. I, it wasn’t clear how to use it. There wasn’t good instruction. On what it was for, how it was used necessarily. It was in the documentation, but it was a little loosey goosey. And so what I would say is if your business is using lead source and that is sufficient for you, you may or may not want to take the time.

[00:13:33] Andy Caron: To use it acquisition program is automatically set. If you’re using a Marketo landing page, local to the program, and someone fills out a form on that page. But if you’re using a global form and then putting it on your website, or you’re not using a landing page that is local to the program, you have to take the time to create a flow step to actually set the acquisition program inside of your.

[00:14:01] Andy Caron: Flow steps in your automation. And so what that’s going to mean is that you’re creating that additional data point. Now, the way that I like to think about acquisition program is this is program specific and it ladders up to potentially what you might think of as the tactic what Marketo calls your channels.

[00:14:23] Andy Caron: And when you set the acquisition program, it sets a tag of acquired, which then also syncs over to the SFDC campaign, if you’re using Marketo paired with SFDC and connecting that data. And so when paired with lead source, it can actually be quite powerful. Lead source to me. is what led to the acquisition program, right?

[00:14:47] Andy Caron: So they came in via LinkedIn or via Google search or what have you. So that’s going to tell you how people are getting to your content. But the acquisition program is going to tell you what content is actually getting that form fill for the first time. And I think there is good valuable data there if you choose to collect it and to use it.

[00:15:08] Andy Caron: I think really sufficient is a, is such a valuable data. a, a unique case by case term, right? What is sufficient for one business might not be sufficient for another, or it may be sufficient for now, but it won’t be sufficient for future six months or 12 months in the future. You, or let’s say you get promoted and your replacement, they may want or need that data.

[00:15:35] Andy Caron: I always err on the side of create more data that You think will be useful. Don’t create data just to create data, but create more data if you think it will be future state useful, create it now, and then if you don’t use it, you can always deprecate it, erase it, get rid of it, whatever. But if you have it and you need it, it’s a much better place to be than if you need it and you don’t have

[00:15:59] Joe Peters: it.

[00:16:01] Joe Peters: Right. So this is, this is kind of like a strategic housekeeping kind of decision where, you know, it doesn’t
really hurt. But it could be a problem later on if you don’t have it.

[00:16:18] Andy Caron: Well, I think it’s about identifying unique data sets, right? What brought someone into the system as a lead source isn’t the same as what brought someone into actually filling out a form and giving you their information for the first time.

[00:16:34] Andy Caron: And so having those two separate data sets if they’re useful and understanding that they are separate and why they’re different from each other and differentiating them strategically, I think is really the key

[00:16:46] Joe Peters: here. Yeah. More is better in this situation. So, all right. Well, thanks, Andy. And thanks to our marketingops.

[00:16:56] Joe Peters: com community for this question this week. Now, keeping consistent with the needs of the community is really the inspiration for this next segment. that we’re going to be calling AI Navigators. We’re going to do this each week. We’ll be looking at a different element of AI to help our MOPS colleagues in thinking through some of the challenges and opportunities that AI is going to present.

[00:17:30] Joe Peters: When I was at MOPSpalooza, it seems like That was a month ago, but it was still, we’re still in November when I was on AI panel, the Paul Wilson, who was the, who is leading the panel discussion, asked the crowd, how many had AI guidelines? How many of the participants in the room had AI guidelines? And I’m pretty sure it was only the RP team members that put their hands up.

[00:18:06] Joe Peters: Yes. Yes. That was it. In thinking about that, we know that most of our community is using ai, or at least has, has tried it. I thought it might be helpful to share some of our thinking at RP so the community could use that to inform some of their thinking, not providing things that are gated, just a link for people to downloads.

[00:18:38] Joe Peters: We’ve created a a template that people can use just internally to help. I’m going to either foster an internal conversation, personal exploration around this, or internal to your team or group to start to think through some of these things. So, the document is divided into three sections. One on kind of the philosophical AI use models for organizations.

[00:19:14] Joe Peters: And, and maybe I should explain that a little bit. I think there are three different philosophies in organizations. One is an open use free reign use AI, however you want in, in some organizational con constructs, that’s. That’s really helpful, and you want as much creativity and learning as possible. A middle of the road approach would be some moderate restrictions, which are, A, don’t put up our data, don’t put up our client data.

[00:19:51] Joe Peters: Kind of think about those things or several areas for restrictions before you do it. And then there’s high control environments, and some of our clients are in that space where every single use case needs to be approved. And nothing can be done with AI unless it is approved. So organizations need to think where do you fit in that continuum and then determine some guidelines and principles that can be shared internally so that everyone’s on the same page.

[00:20:26] Joe Peters: So this template document that we’re, we’re going to be posting on our website and in the show notes as well is just a place for people to come and take This information, food for thought, and be able to use that to fuel some conversations that are pretty important in organizations. Because in the absence of any kind of outline or guidelines or principles, individuals get to choose how they’re going to use AI.

[00:20:57] Joe Peters: Which may not always be the right model for organizations.

[00:21:06] Joe Peters: Any thoughts there, Andy?

[00:21:08] Andy Caron: I think that this is an important conversation, and I think some people haven’t even thought to have it yet, to be honest, which is interesting, they’re, they’re so busy thinking about if they could, they haven’t had the should we conversation you know, I reviewed this Again, I, I know I’d seen it prior, but I, I went through it a little bit more deeply just with a newer lens of not, you know, the spring and innovation and lots of new stuff coming forward.

[00:21:38] Andy Caron: And I, I think the thing that was most interesting to me through my current lens is first around the data privacy and security and the risks inherent with what kind of data you put in particularly open source or open models. First, and just how risk adverse I’ve seen clients be when you’re talking about data and data modeling and AI.

[00:22:09] Andy Caron: aNd then on the other side of that completely, the How do we balance AI and human element in there, I think is a wonderful addition, right? How do we look at human decision making and augmenting human with AI as opposed to replacing them or making that the focus as opposed to the people doing the work with AI as an assist?

[00:22:41] Joe Peters: I think that human centered Approach is really important and as well because our mops colleagues are generally the more technically proficient. Team leaders in marketing. There’s a chance for our mops to play a real leadership role in this space. Because if this thinking isn’t happening elsewhere, there’s a chance for you to say, well, put up your hand and say, we may need to be starting to think about this and this is a foundation that we can have a bit of a conversation about.

[00:23:21] Joe Peters: There’s, there’s, there’s nothing proprietary here or anything. This is just food for thought to help. And enable you in making some of these decisions that are, which are really important for organization.

[00:23:36] Andy Caron: Agreed. The one thing I, I don’t think that it necessarily dives in as, as deeply as I would like that I think has also been a focal point for our own organization is around the socialization of what’s happening.

[00:23:51] Andy Caron: We talk a lot about training and preparedness, but I think there’s also an aspect here around how the work that’s being done is socialized, is shared, built upon, becomes a foundation for someone else’s. I think that’s another aspect of this where it needs to be not just an organizational approach, but also an organizational utilization.

[00:24:18] Joe Peters: Well, Annie, don’t, don’t scoop our future segments here. There’s, there’s, we, we need to keep it enough for, for our future. future weeks here, but week by week, we’re going to start to talk about these things. And there are other really important parts around organizational culture, AI literacy, AI councils, learning and, and considering what all of the opportunity can mean for an organization.

[00:24:47] Joe Peters: There’s a lot here. But I think moving on from this is just a first part of the conversation. Yeah, just a first first. We want to give you bite sized chunks every week. And this is week one in having that conversation as this in this A. I. Navigator segment. All right. We can’t forget to thank our sponsors.

[00:25:13] Joe Peters: So thanks to our friends at Knack for sponsoring today’s episode. Knack is the no code platform that allows you to build campaigns in minutes. Get to market 95 percent faster with Knack. Visit knack. com to learn more. That’s K N A K dot com. All right, let’s move into our hot takes segment. And I love this first one on what are the mop skills for 2024.

[00:25:39] Joe Peters: And Sarah McNamara shared this list of the best B2B mop skills. Based on job descriptions. And the list, Marketo HubSpot at the top, Tableau second, Excel three, followed by SQL, Salesforce, and Google Analytics. Where to start here? So, what do you think, Andy, about this list?

[00:26:05] Andy Caron: I like it. I think that there’s nothing on this list that surprises me per se.

[00:26:14] Andy Caron: But I do think that sequel is almost synonymous with Tableau. And so those two, not that they’re redundant by any means, but one is an extension. of the other. And so I think that the, the, the two are sort of almost slashed is, is interesting. I think also the fact that there’s no mention of other code Python AI.

[00:26:40] Andy Caron: That was,

[00:26:40] Joe Peters: that was, that was what I thought was missing here. Yeah. And, and that’s a, that’s a skill that we’ve been really nurturing here at RP. Exactly. But the other, the other ones here, um, are really just the core of our business, I would say.

[00:27:01] Andy Caron: They are. The other piece that I might anticipate, anticipate.

[00:27:06] Andy Caron: Be seeing added in 2024 is around CDP as a discipline and data architecture. I think that’s another piece that’s
really going to become a core MOPs skill that is a necessary part of the team.

[00:27:25] Joe Peters: Right. And there has been some really interesting conversations around, well, MOPs. subsume a data ops kind of function in organizations.

[00:27:36] Joe Peters: And if being the custodians of such important data, there is a real shift in that mindset and thinking that those skills are going to be super important moving forward as well.

[00:27:49] Andy Caron: Yes, I had a really interesting conversation at Mousepalooza with the CMO at OpenPrize and we agreed that we felt like the trend was going to be to move away from being a database marketer to being a data marketer.

[00:28:05] Andy Caron: And I think that is the theme that I have front and center for me as I’m looking at trends and where we’re going to be headed in the next year or two.

[00:28:15] Joe Peters: I love that. I hadn’t heard that before, but I do love

[00:28:18] Andy Caron: that. I coined it. So you’re welcome.

[00:28:19] Joe Peters: A little TM in the corner of that post. All right. Well, let’s move on to another hot take topic here.

[00:28:32] Joe Peters: And that is about Amazon launching. So the Wall Street Journal reports that Amazon is wanting to train two million people in AI as it fights for skilled workers. And so they’re offering free training in a program centered around eight online courses. There’s, there’s a lot more details in here, but. I think conceptually, this is a really interesting move by Amazon, not only to kind of democratize this learning, but also identify talent for them to recruit for their future AI workforce needs.

[00:29:18] Andy Caron: I agree. I think that this is one of those things that you need to have on your resume and it’s a fantastic item to add if you’re still in school and you’re looking to bulk up before you start to job hunt. I think this is one of those perfect. Items that’s paired, or if you’re returning to the workplace after having taken some time post 2020, 2021, I think this is going to be huge.

[00:29:46] Andy Caron: I’m curious to see if the, what the 2 million audience will be comprised of, who will make up the bulk of that, or if it will be very differentiated and, and multifaceted.

[00:30:01] Joe Peters: Interesting. We may have had a little glitch in the space time continuum there. I lost you for a second. And so. Just in case, do you want to just recap your last thought?

[00:30:12] Joe Peters: I

[00:30:12] Andy Caron: was saying that I thought it would be interesting to see who the, what the two million person audience was comprised of. If this is students that are looking to bulk up their resumes, people that are returning to work after maybe having taken some time away, if it will skew toward one particular age group or population or if it’ll be fairly differentiated in who ultimately ultimately…

[00:30:36] Andy Caron: Receives and completes the training that Amazon’s going to provide.

[00:30:42] Joe Peters: Okay, that, that makes, that makes sense. It’s very interesting. I think all the big players are democratizing the learning, which is super important. I think we’re seeing that, that everywhere now, and there’s a lot of opportunity to, to learn.

[00:30:57] Joe Peters: So you put your hand up and dive right in as, as deep as you would like. Alright, let’s move to our third topic this week on doomscrolling. It’s time to log off. This is a story from Wired. com and we’re seeing that people are ingesting too much negative news. And social media algorithms tend to elevate the most contentious content.

[00:31:23] Joe Peters: So feeds are showing you things that will elicit a visceral or emotional response. And negative news can… Increased anxiety, depression, PTSD. And so a professor from the University of Vermont told Wired that this idea is that stress is cumulative in this area. And one thing starts stressing you out and then another and another and another.

[00:31:54] Joe Peters: And you’re spiraling in sort of this scrolling fed loop of, of I’m going to say anxiety. Yeah. And so I think we’re in a, we’re in a situation where. It’s important for, for us to figure out ways to either stop the scroll or take the breaks or look for other, other ways to fill in the moment that might be a little bit more positive and healthier for us.

[00:32:29] Andy Caron: Yeah, I think the generalized level of anxiety that exists for a lot of people these days is reaching a fever pitch. It’s not tenable. I was chatting with someone recently, and we were talking about the difference Today, of being sent to Europe on a business trip versus a hundred years ago, a hundred years ago, we’re traveling from Chicago.

[00:32:52] Andy Caron: You’d get on a train, you’d get to the steamer ship. Then you’re looking at least a three week crossing. By the time you get over there and get to your destination, you’re going to do other things. You’re probably going to set up other meetings, et cetera, and then you’re going to head back. So we’re talking about what at minimum for an important business meeting in Europe, a three months.

[00:33:11] Andy Caron: Period of time and your work. Supported you in taking that time because that’s the time it took to get there. That was the pace of life. I don’t think we’ve had a chance in the last 100 years to evolve from a nervous system, from a composition of the chemical aspects of our brain to deal with the fact that today if I have to go to Europe.

[00:33:35] Andy Caron: I’m working all day, I’m grabbing my bag, I’m going, I’m hopping on a red eye, there’s Wi Fi on the plane, so I’m going to try to work while I’m on the plane because I need to use that time to be efficient. I might get a little sleep, then I land, I grab a cup of coffee, I like boost myself back up, I maybe get a couple hours of sleep, then I, you know, go out.

[00:33:54] Andy Caron: for a business dinner. Cause I got to do that. I’d get up the next morning. I have my meeting. Then I run to the airport, hop on the plane, get back on the wifi, maybe get a few hours of sleep. And then I’m expected to be online the next day. And even saying that the level of anxiety and tension that I can feel.

[00:34:10] Andy Caron: feel from that pace, I think perfectly exemplifies the fact that the pace at which we are expected to do life in general doesn’t jive with the way that our nerves, nervous systems are wired, the way that we as humans have evolved. to have a cadence and style of life, and then you add in the fact that you’ve got a computer in your back pocket all day, you go, you lay down, what do you do?

[00:34:36] Andy Caron: You go on, you go to look at one thing, and next thing you know, you’ve spent an hour and a half, and all you’ve done is added additional layers onto that snowball of anxiety and stress.

[00:34:48] Joe Peters: Exactly, and I think we have to find our own ways that make sense to us. I think we know. We know if you ask anyone.

[00:34:58] Joe Peters: Intellectually, we all know that this is a challenge, but what are we actually doing about it? That’s, I think the question that we need to challenge ourselves and as we move into this new year resolution phase, this might be a time to examine our use of different technologies and figure out a time to give ourselves a bit of a break.

[00:35:26] Joe Peters: What’s the mental health? break we can take from this. And, and I, I think maybe that’s a good segue into what we want to do in one of our first episodes of the new year is really start to talk about wellness and mobs and what that means. And, and it’s not only wellness at work. We can’t just pretend that, that there’s just this magic severance between work and home life.

[00:35:56] Joe Peters: And technology and how it kind of connects to us in all of these spaces, we really start to, we need to really take some time to think about ourselves and how we’re taking care of ourselves and each other.

[00:36:11] Andy Caron: So Joe, do you doom scroll?

[00:36:14] Joe Peters: Absolutely can, but I have tips to stop. Like I know, I know when I’m doing it.

[00:36:20] Joe Peters: So for example, my guilty pleasures, I’ve put only on my iPad and I’ve taken them off my phone. Okay. And that is my control function. I can’t just do it whenever I want. I actually have to go get that device, spend the time and do it. And I, and for me, that’s really helped me a lot. I still love to go on X and, and, and, cause I love all the learning that I can do there and amongst all the other stuff that’s, that’s on the platform.

[00:36:56] Joe Peters: But if I just have it on my phone all the time, it can be my default that I go to. Whenever I have a few minutes, and that’s the, that can be the unhealthy part.

[00:37:07] Andy Caron: My tactic, so I, I don’t separate church and state in devices per se, but I have been known to, to get into it once I’ve laid down and I, I’ll have to stop myself because I can, you know, spend an hour and go, geez, that, that was time I should have been sleeping or, you know, could have used more, more efficiently.

[00:37:27] Andy Caron: I like to listen to audio books as I’m going to sleep. But my tactic is I, as I’m falling asleep with my audio book, have started putting my phone in airplane mode and then I will play solitaire just to get my brain to shut down because I need something to shut it down and sadly that is my phone.

[00:37:51] Andy Caron: I wish it wasn’t a screen. They say that’s not optimal. to look at your screen right before you fall asleep, but the the solitaire sort of relaxes and shuts my brain down enough. But then if I do click over and sort of almost automatically go to Facebook, it’s not live, right? I can’t get into the scroll, the, the, the videos, the snippets, the reels, all the other stuff.

[00:38:14] Andy Caron: That will then have me going down rabbit holes and so having that actual physical disconnection from the internet while still being on my device is, is a way that I’ve found. to mitigate that for myself. So that’s been very useful. You’ve

[00:38:30] Joe Peters: kind of just allowed kind of like whatever is cached as your limit, which is, which is kind of, that’s a fun way of doing it.

[00:38:39] Joe Peters: I think this is, we’re going to, this is a hot take, but I, I, this week, but Yeah, there is. This is an important conversation. And I think thematically, I think there are things that we need to do better, not only as organizations, but to challenge ourselves as individuals assist ourselves because there is some really unhealthy behavior that is oddly become normalized.

[00:39:09] Joe Peters: And when you compare it to earlier eras, like I think of my, what my parents were always yelling me about watching TV, the idiot box, that that’s what they called it. Now, now, now, well, what does this, what does it make? What is this? What’s our phone? Right? I don’t know. But anyway, let’s move on. There’s a lot, there’s a lot for us to cover here.

[00:39:36] Joe Peters: And I think we can help each other out and start to strategize on having these moments of disconnection and And because it’s in our best interest, I really think it is. All right. Well, let’s move into our pairings this week. I thought we’d go to the Strokes one because the Strokes are one of my favorite bands in my top two or three.

[00:40:05] Joe Peters: So I have a real soft spot for them, but I thought with everything that was going on, Room on Fire was perfect album. And the tracks kind of feel like it could be used just the titles to tell the whole story around AI recently. Between love and hate, automatic stop, under control, the end has no end.

[00:40:33] Joe Peters: These are just tracks off the album that we could put the whole Altman saga into that sequence there. But in the end, I couldn’t help myself. The hook is too good in Reptilia. So that’s the track we’re going to share this week, but a great album. The colored vinyl is amazing on this one in terms of what Vinyl Me Please has done.

[00:40:57] Joe Peters: You can see that in our, in our show notes. As always, we play a little bit longer segment of the song at the end. End of launch code. So at the end of this episode, you want to hear Reptilia in a, in a longer format, you’re, you’re, you’ll have that opportunity there, but I couldn’t help myself make this connection and I had a lot of trouble picking the track, but I think this one is good for us this week.

[00:41:25] Joe Peters: So what do you have on the reading side, Andi?

[00:41:28] Andy Caron: So I like to alternate fiction and non fiction. So this is a a fiction section for me. The book I am bringing is the first in the Bobiverse series, which is what it’s affectionately come to be known as. But the first book is called We Are Legion, We Are Bob.

[00:41:45] Andy Caron: And… The We Are Bob is in parentheses, but We Are Legion is the first installment in a four book series by a sci fi legend. I mean, just amazing work coming from Dennis E. Taylor. I absolutely love this book, but it postulates this future. Of a von Neumann probe, which is a self replicating spaceship that can then be used for exploration.

[00:42:15] Andy Caron: So it has 3D printers on board and you can build more ships as you find deposits of various minerals and other items in space. Rather than having to build it all and launch it all from Earth, which is an interesting first piece. But what makes this really fun… Is this is a human consciousness that has been loaded into a computer and that has been launched with the spaceship as its navigator and as its primary crew member, I guess because of self self replication, this man, former man, Bob is also replicating himself.

[00:42:56] Andy Caron: And so it gets into these fascinating areas above and beyond. space exploration and sort of the challenges and realities of finding, you know, the materials needed to even make the spaceships with, if you could clone yourself. What work would you have that person do versus what would you pick for yourself?

[00:43:16] Andy Caron: How is that person individuated from you? Are they you? Are they a separate person? And then as they replicate out from that first replica, how, what’s the drift like? Would you even like a version of you? Are there different things that come to the fore or more subdued in individuals? And how do you Potentially work in a community of yourself in a whole slew of varieties, and it’s just such a fun, great exploration that also looks at human consciousness in a digital environment and what would be necessary to even maintain sanity in that type of a scenario.

[00:44:01] Andy Caron: So, fantastic series. The first book is really great and I highly, highly recommend, as I always do, the audible version. The narrator is just fantastic. He is Bob for me. So Canada recommend that book and that series enough.

[00:44:16] Joe Peters: It’s so interesting when we have fiction informing our reality today. Yeah. And science fiction or Theater or TV series are, are really helping us understand our future.

[00:44:37] Joe Peters: In terms of our technological advancements, I find it fascinating. Well, this is super interesting. I’ll have to add it to my Audible list. I have about 72 hours of a backlog of Audible books to get through still, but There are sales right now, Joe. I know. I have, I think I have like, I also have like 12 credits still left on Audible because I haven’t gotten through, but there’s so many podcasts, so many great things to listen to these days.

[00:45:03] Joe Peters: But this, this Baba versus. Really interesting and I’m gonna have to find some time on a long drive to listen to Bob, but all right Well, thanks for sharing that. So this is the end of this week’s episode. Thanks to everyone for listening Be sure to subscribe rate and review. You can find us on Spotify YouTube and Apple Stay connected with us on LinkedIn or by joining our newsletter Also called launch codes using the link in the description and thanks mom for watching.

[00:45:37] Joe Peters: Have a great week everyone